6 ms·

Welfare discourages striving for greatness, because as soon as you show any sign of success it's taken away from you. The "universal" in UBI means it's paid to

by mrob 9y ago

Welfare discourages striving for greatness, because as soon as you show any sign of success it's taken away from you. The "universal" in UBI means it's paid to everybody, rich and poor. It lacks the weird breakpoints and perverse incentives of welfare. You are always better off working.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
Prior to Sam Altman re-envisioning YC as a form of UBI, Paul Graham talked a lot about the idea that the money they gave was insignificant. The real value was in connecting you with movers and shakers and educating you about business creation. Last I checked, UBI does not come with built in business education or introductions to movers and shakers. I was homeless for nearly six years and actively trying to make business connections on HN, largely to no avail. No one wanted to take me seriously. Unsurprisingly, my income grew extremely slowly. If I had a choice between UBI or connections, I would take connections in a heart beat. They are potentially worth millions.
- contingencies 9y ago
  FWIW I have noticed your posts and your arguments are lucid. A well-worn path to higher income as a communications professional is corporate PR and media management. You could consider developing an offering here for startups, either a course or a book or (preferably) a business, since we now see so many PR hacks for startups type articles yet as an actual founder I can tell you I don't have time to manually research hitlists for general PR nor source professional imagery, newswire services or upcoming conference/event/speaking/interview opportunities, etc. I think there is definitely room for a paid service in this space with a human touch and it won't take much to stand out, eg. professional translation and redistribution to specific language media of PR announcements as a default service. Good luck on your journey!
  - acjohnson55 9y ago
    Great point. Or perhaps a PR firm. If you're near NYC, SF or Boston, my wife works at a firm she loves and I'd be glad to intro you (Doreen) to her.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      I am in a small town in Southwest Coastal Washington.
- danenania 9y ago
  I think the idea of the YC money being insignificant comes from its roots as a program for college students. When you're still mostly supported by your parents, the money isn't as big of a deal since you have basically no expenses and endless runway anyway. But when you've got rent, bills, a family, etc., the money is a very big deal and can easily be the difference between having the runway to make it vs. needing to quit and get a job prematurely. The parallels with basic income are clear. How many people are out there with the potential to be one of the best in the world at something important, yet aren't able to develop themselves because they started with nothing and are 100% focused on making ends meet? We won't find out until we give all those people a chance.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    The idea of UBI is free money for life. Being given $12k or $20k in exchange for stock in your company is intended to let you focus on the business for a few months and thereby try to develop wealth to last a lifetime. It is very much time limited and tied to performance. If you promise everyone money for life, many people won't bother to create wealth. Wealth creation tends to involve rocking the boat. Have you heard of Duke Nukem Forever? They had scads of money and spent years trying to make the next perfect thing and failing to release because it wasn't yet perfect. Then they would start over because they were taking so long that technology had changed and all their work was out of date. I think they finally released when they ran out of money. A lot of people will do absolutely nothing if they have money for life. People are neurotic, perfectionistic and on and on. We do an awful lot of stuff we don't really want to do because we need the money. We don't want to starve. If we guaranteed a minimum level of comfort, a great many people will do absolutely not a thing because doing stuff is scary and hard and what if we look like fools? and on an on.
    - danenania 9y ago
      It doesn't matter if most people create wealth. Just like in the startup world, human achievement and wealth creation follows a power law. It's well worth it to have 8/10 people just subsist (and, by the way, not starve/become desperate/destabilize society) if it unlocks the potential of 2 extremely capable people who otherwise wouldn't have had a chance.
dahdum 9y ago
Most discussions I've seen of UBI recently have shifted from universal to means tested. Regardless, wouldn't UBI need to be higher for the sick, elderly, and disabled? Either it's high enough for them and too much for everyone else, or it's too low for them. Keep adjusting and you end up with a means tested welfare system like today.
- mrob 9y ago
  If it's means tested then it's not UBI. Sickness/disability might indeed be a problem, but it's better to address that specific problem, eg. with health care subsidies, rather than reintroducing means testing. Means testing has three major problems: 1. Incentive to game the system. 2. Social stigma to receiving benefits. 3. High administration cost. UBI is the only welfare system that eliminates all three.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Most discussions I've seen of UBI recently have shifted from universal to means tested. If it's means-tested, it's not a UBI; the “U” is ”Unconditional” (less often “Universal”, with the same meaning) indicating that everyone in some defined population gets it without means, needs, or behavior-testing, specifically. > Regardless, wouldn't UBI need to be higher for the sick, elderly, and disabled? With a UBI, existing benefit or social insurance programs that aren't primarily means tested but address other special needs might need to be maintained, including programs offering special support for the aged, blind, and disabled. This is different than a means-tested safety nets, though.
- gaius 9y ago
  It can't be means tested, both philosophically - the U - and practically, since to make the numbers work (in the UK at least) you need to also ditch the expensive bureaucracy.
gehwartzen 9y ago
There is still at least one break point with a UBI since it is payed for by money gained through taxation. While in theory everyone 'gets' the UBI those that pay more than the UBI in taxes effectively just get taxed that amount less. There is a break point where the money you pay in taxes matches the UBI.
- DougWebb 9y ago
  That's not a breakpoint, it's a smooth transition. A breakpoint is when you earn $X, and that's low enough to get $Y in welfare. But if you work longer/harder the total amount you get is still $X+$Y because your welfare amount is reduced dollar-for-dollar with your earnings above $X. You don't start to increase your income unless you manage to earn more than $X+$Y entirely on your own. This creates a huge disincentive to earn more than $X, because for most people at that income level the jump to earning $X+$Y seems insurmountable.

by mrob 9y ago

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Prior to Sam Altman re-envisioning YC as a form of UBI, Paul Graham talked a lot about the idea that the money they gave was insignificant. The real value was in connecting you with movers and shakers and educating you about business creation. Last I checked, UBI does not come with built in business education or introductions to movers and shakers. I was homeless for nearly six years and actively trying to make business connections on HN, largely to no avail. No one wanted to take me seriously. Unsurprisingly, my income grew extremely slowly. If I had a choice between UBI or connections, I would take connections in a heart beat. They are potentially worth millions.

contingencies 9y ago
FWIW I have noticed your posts and your arguments are lucid. A well-worn path to higher income as a communications professional is corporate PR and media management. You could consider developing an offering here for startups, either a course or a book or (preferably) a business, since we now see so many PR hacks for startups type articles yet as an actual founder I can tell you I don't have time to manually research hitlists for general PR nor source professional imagery, newswire services or upcoming conference/event/speaking/interview opportunities, etc. I think there is definitely room for a paid service in this space with a human touch and it won't take much to stand out, eg. professional translation and redistribution to specific language media of PR announcements as a default service. Good luck on your journey!
- acjohnson55 9y ago
  Great point. Or perhaps a PR firm. If you're near NYC, SF or Boston, my wife works at a firm she loves and I'd be glad to intro you (Doreen) to her.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I am in a small town in Southwest Coastal Washington.
danenania 9y ago
I think the idea of the YC money being insignificant comes from its roots as a program for college students. When you're still mostly supported by your parents, the money isn't as big of a deal since you have basically no expenses and endless runway anyway. But when you've got rent, bills, a family, etc., the money is a very big deal and can easily be the difference between having the runway to make it vs. needing to quit and get a job prematurely. The parallels with basic income are clear. How many people are out there with the potential to be one of the best in the world at something important, yet aren't able to develop themselves because they started with nothing and are 100% focused on making ends meet? We won't find out until we give all those people a chance.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  The idea of UBI is free money for life. Being given $12k or $20k in exchange for stock in your company is intended to let you focus on the business for a few months and thereby try to develop wealth to last a lifetime. It is very much time limited and tied to performance. If you promise everyone money for life, many people won't bother to create wealth. Wealth creation tends to involve rocking the boat. Have you heard of Duke Nukem Forever? They had scads of money and spent years trying to make the next perfect thing and failing to release because it wasn't yet perfect. Then they would start over because they were taking so long that technology had changed and all their work was out of date. I think they finally released when they ran out of money. A lot of people will do absolutely nothing if they have money for life. People are neurotic, perfectionistic and on and on. We do an awful lot of stuff we don't really want to do because we need the money. We don't want to starve. If we guaranteed a minimum level of comfort, a great many people will do absolutely not a thing because doing stuff is scary and hard and what if we look like fools? and on an on.
  - danenania 9y ago
    It doesn't matter if most people create wealth. Just like in the startup world, human achievement and wealth creation follows a power law. It's well worth it to have 8/10 people just subsist (and, by the way, not starve/become desperate/destabilize society) if it unlocks the potential of 2 extremely capable people who otherwise wouldn't have had a chance.

dahdum 9y ago

Most discussions I've seen of UBI recently have shifted from universal to means tested. Regardless, wouldn't UBI need to be higher for the sick, elderly, and disabled? Either it's high enough for them and too much for everyone else, or it's too low for them. Keep adjusting and you end up with a means tested welfare system like today.

mrob 9y ago
If it's means tested then it's not UBI. Sickness/disability might indeed be a problem, but it's better to address that specific problem, eg. with health care subsidies, rather than reintroducing means testing. Means testing has three major problems: 1. Incentive to game the system. 2. Social stigma to receiving benefits. 3. High administration cost. UBI is the only welfare system that eliminates all three.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Most discussions I've seen of UBI recently have shifted from universal to means tested. If it's means-tested, it's not a UBI; the “U” is ”Unconditional” (less often “Universal”, with the same meaning) indicating that everyone in some defined population gets it without means, needs, or behavior-testing, specifically. > Regardless, wouldn't UBI need to be higher for the sick, elderly, and disabled? With a UBI, existing benefit or social insurance programs that aren't primarily means tested but address other special needs might need to be maintained, including programs offering special support for the aged, blind, and disabled. This is different than a means-tested safety nets, though.
gaius 9y ago
It can't be means tested, both philosophically - the U - and practically, since to make the numbers work (in the UK at least) you need to also ditch the expensive bureaucracy.

gehwartzen 9y ago

There is still at least one break point with a UBI since it is payed for by money gained through taxation. While in theory everyone 'gets' the UBI those that pay more than the UBI in taxes effectively just get taxed that amount less. There is a break point where the money you pay in taxes matches the UBI.

DougWebb 9y ago
That's not a breakpoint, it's a smooth transition. A breakpoint is when you earn $X, and that's low enough to get $Y in welfare. But if you work longer/harder the total amount you get is still $X+$Y because your welfare amount is reduced dollar-for-dollar with your earnings above $X. You don't start to increase your income unless you manage to earn more than $X+$Y entirely on your own. This creates a huge disincentive to earn more than $X, because for most people at that income level the jump to earning $X+$Y seems insurmountable.