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"We’re still in our pilot. It turns out that giving money to people is much harder than you might imagine. We’ve had to work with state, local, federal governme

by jpao79 9y ago

"We’re still in our pilot. It turns out that giving money to people is much harder than you might imagine. We’ve had to work with state, local, federal governments so that people in our study don’t lose their housing eligibility, lose their food assistance just because we’re giving them money and raising their income level. And what we don’t want is to make anyone worse off." It feels like this statement is what would concern most skeptics of UBI, that is yet another layer of complexity on top of an already complex system. Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced?

netinstructions 9y ago
Sure that could be the goal, but when you run a small pilot you can't just ignore the existing policies and laws... Also it's not the main benefit of UBI. It's just one benefit (or side effect) of UBI - when it's universal (not just a pilot) you can reduce the overhead of administrative costs.
- jerkstate 9y ago
  If the benefit requires other subsidies for recipients to survive, does it actually fit the definition of UBI?
  - Suncho 9y ago
    > If the benefit requires other subsidies for recipients to survive, does it actually fit the definition of UBI? Different people used different definitions of basic income. As far as I know, the most commonly accepted definition says nothing about the amount. But I have heard people say that it's not a "true" basic income if it's not above a certain level.
    - jerkstate 9y ago
      I just looked up the "basic income" wikipedia page and you are right, "full" basic income is above subsistence/poverty level and "partial" basic income is below. So this would be a trial of partial, non-universal basic income.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? No, the main benefit is that eliminating means testing eliminates perverse effects which reduce the benefit of outside income when in means-tested benefit programs. Reduced total program overhead is a peripheral benefit of a mature UBI vs. existing means-tested benefit programs.
- jpao79 9y ago
  Ok I agree. The main thought was that the pilot doesn't seem to be eliminating the means testing (i.e. conditional welfare). The pilot seems to be just piling UBI onto people's existing federal/state/local welfare checks. And additionally the pilot is giving it to people not already on welfare.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > The main thought was that the pilot doesn't seem to be eliminating the means testing (i.e. conditional welfare). An immature UBI probably doesn't eliminate all means testing, it just increases from $0 the support level below which benefits aren't subject to a means test; which has similar but reduced benefits in terms of incentives (but lower cost) than full replacement of means-tested programs. And, it's a pilot, not even the main study. > The pilot seems to be just piling UBI onto people's existing federal/state/local welfare checks. I think that's a misreading; it sounds like they did work to avoid beneficiaries losing non-cash aid like housing subsidies and food assistance, but it doesn't sound like (for people eligible to cash aid) they did anything to protect that, so the income would seem to reduce such benefits the same as other outside income would. (Which probably wipes out General Assistance eligibility, but might leave some TANF eligibility.) > And additionally the pilot is giving it to people not already on welfare. That's what the U in UBI is all about.
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? No no no. The Universal means it's given to everyone, not that it is the universal welfare program.
Suncho 9y ago
> Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? I would say no. The main benefits of basic income are increased levels of economic stability and increased levels of social prosperity. It may end up being the case that after we implement a basic income, we discover that our society does not need some of our welfare programs. Then we can eliminate them. But that's not the main benefit of basic income.

by jpao79 9y ago

netinstructions 9y ago

Sure that could be the goal, but when you run a small pilot you can't just ignore the existing policies and laws... Also it's not the main benefit of UBI. It's just one benefit (or side effect) of UBI - when it's universal (not just a pilot) you can reduce the overhead of administrative costs.

jerkstate 9y ago
If the benefit requires other subsidies for recipients to survive, does it actually fit the definition of UBI?
- Suncho 9y ago
  > If the benefit requires other subsidies for recipients to survive, does it actually fit the definition of UBI? Different people used different definitions of basic income. As far as I know, the most commonly accepted definition says nothing about the amount. But I have heard people say that it's not a "true" basic income if it's not above a certain level.
  - jerkstate 9y ago
    I just looked up the "basic income" wikipedia page and you are right, "full" basic income is above subsistence/poverty level and "partial" basic income is below. So this would be a trial of partial, non-universal basic income.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? No, the main benefit is that eliminating means testing eliminates perverse effects which reduce the benefit of outside income when in means-tested benefit programs. Reduced total program overhead is a peripheral benefit of a mature UBI vs. existing means-tested benefit programs.

jpao79 9y ago
Ok I agree. The main thought was that the pilot doesn't seem to be eliminating the means testing (i.e. conditional welfare). The pilot seems to be just piling UBI onto people's existing federal/state/local welfare checks. And additionally the pilot is giving it to people not already on welfare.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > The main thought was that the pilot doesn't seem to be eliminating the means testing (i.e. conditional welfare). An immature UBI probably doesn't eliminate all means testing, it just increases from $0 the support level below which benefits aren't subject to a means test; which has similar but reduced benefits in terms of incentives (but lower cost) than full replacement of means-tested programs. And, it's a pilot, not even the main study. > The pilot seems to be just piling UBI onto people's existing federal/state/local welfare checks. I think that's a misreading; it sounds like they did work to avoid beneficiaries losing non-cash aid like housing subsidies and food assistance, but it doesn't sound like (for people eligible to cash aid) they did anything to protect that, so the income would seem to reduce such benefits the same as other outside income would. (Which probably wipes out General Assistance eligibility, but might leave some TANF eligibility.) > And additionally the pilot is giving it to people not already on welfare. That's what the U in UBI is all about.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

>Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? No no no. The Universal means it's given to everyone, not that it is the universal welfare program.

Suncho 9y ago

> Isn't the main benefit of UBI to make it so everything is streamlined into a single program and administrative overhead is reduced? I would say no. The main benefits of basic income are increased levels of economic stability and increased levels of social prosperity. It may end up being the case that after we implement a basic income, we discover that our society does not need some of our welfare programs. Then we can eliminate them. But that's not the main benefit of basic income.