7 ms·

Blaming individual scientists is largely misplaced, but you can definitely blame then collectively. The root cause of a lot of these problems is that academia h

Blaming individual scientists is largely misplaced, but you can definitely blame then collectively. The root cause of a lot of these problems is that academia has an almost farcical obsession with prestige, and that's largely a bottom-up function of the culture. The inability to collectively move to different publishing venues is merely one consequence of this culture.

Vinnl 9y ago
...which in turn is a result of governments/funders focusing on "excellence" (whatever that means), there being far more people willing to do research than there are funds available, and prestige being used as a way to distribute those funds.
- tikhonj 9y ago
  It also extends to things outside finding like graduate school admissions or even peer review. On top of that, you know who's making the low-level decisions for giving grants? People from and steeped in the same academic culture. That's a much larger driving force than the politicians at the top of the funding organizations who don't even understand the intricate prestige ranking in academic fields to do anything actionable with it.
  - laretluval 9y ago
    So if you think that the problem stems from a unique problem in academia's culture, then why do you think academia ended up with that culture while other endeavors didn't? Was it because of the character of academics, or because of the incentive structure they operate in?
    - tikhonj 9y ago
      I don't think it's a unique problem to academia. I recently read something in exactly the same spirit from a lawyer (almost literally "we won't hire anyone not from a T14 school"). If anything, the interesting thing to watch for is which endeavors don't have this culture.
    - 660066_rain 9y ago
      It's either human nature, or driven by wealthy, prestige-sensitive trustees at the top.
noobermin 9y ago
If you want to blame anyone, blame publishers, not scientists. Open Access fees assessed by publishers are astronomical, and fall to the scientists seeking to publish them. I haven't published in Nature yet, but my group has to fork over thousands per open access article above the usual cost. There is a disincentive to publish open access given that.
- jononor 9y ago
  Blaming the publishers is not very useful, they are just acting according to their self interest. Their interests are not well aligned with those of the public or scientific community, but they won't care about that until they have to. Have to focus on building up the alternatives, so that the publishers lose the power to dictate the terms. It's happening though, slowly...
  - noobermin 9y ago
    As a publishing scientist, let me tell you, science publishing is not a free market. We can't just "build up the alternatives" because that is not conducive to anyone's scientific career. If it's some no name journal where you will publish along side free energy and cold fusion articles, no one will do it. The mistake is giving journals a profit incentive in the first place in a system that inherently doesn't work well in a market system. You can't have "competition" between journals, it just doesn't work that way. A handful of journals have high impact factors and so get most of the submissions, that's how it is, and they then can crank up their publishing fees because they can. Perhaps you shouldn't "blame the publishers" given they are "acting according to their self interest." I did say "If you want to blame anyone[...]," implying I don't really care to blame anyone. I admit I am more inclined to blame the publishers, but the whole system is fundamentally broken.
    - ngold 9y ago
      Blame the taxpayer. We as a nation should demand we get access to what we pay for. At this point we are funding publishers to make free money off of what was already paid for.
hateduser2 9y ago
I thought that was true everywhere? Isn't that a major reason people work at Apple, Google...? I didn't ever notice anything different about academia's concern with prestige (feel free to prove me wrong.)
- tikhonj 9y ago
  I think it's significantly less true in tech, even if it's still present. People are far more flexible about hiring and working with programmers of different backgrounds, and the views I've heard on tech company prestige aren't nearly as strong and rigid as what I've heard from CS researchers about other departments. (Mostly from folks at Berkeley, but only because that's where I did some research as an undergrad.)
- itronitron 9y ago
  the farcical aspect of the obsession with prestige in academia is that it is within such a small community, for less money, and for a narrower set of opportunities... prestige at the major tech companies comes with more pay, more opportunities, and brand name recognition
MaxBarraclough 9y ago
As far as I can tell, all young researchers hate the status quo, and want open access to succeed. No one researcher can change the system. Even the ones who believe in open access have their careers to worry about. I agree with avar's comment above - if the government required that publicly-funded research can only be published the open access way, the problem goes away. It's a prisoner's dilemma: publishing in a closed, high-prestige journal, benefits the researcher but is bad for science. If the government implemented this requirement, though, all researchers would 'instantly' be spared the temptation of 'defecting' by publishing in a closed journal.
- nojvek 9y ago
  I do think sites like arxiv are in the right direction. Also love the Twitter bots that tweets new papers. I make it a habit to read every new paper related to a field of my interest.
andrepd 9y ago
Tell me, when grants are awarded on the basis of if you published in high impact journals, when policy is to not publish in open access, when the vast majority of researchers, especially the youngest generation, despise the current arrangement as little more than rent-seeking by the big journals, tell me, is that the researchers' fault too? Because they are, what was it, obssessed with prestige?
visarga 9y ago
> you can definitely blame then collectively There are to risks for scientists here: the risk that their work becomes locked after publishing and their increased difficulty in getting access to other papers, on the one hand. And the risk that his/her colleague will get ahead by publishing in closed journals, while they waste their careers away with less prestigious open publications, on the other hand. The status quo is that they are more afraid of each other than the publishers, afraid that their colleague is getting ahead, so they can't prioritize open access. This deadlock needs to be cut from above.
FabHK 9y ago
> inability to collectively move to different publishing venues Sometimes it works. For example, the ACM Transactions on Algorithms came into being when the entire editorial board of the (Elsevier) Journal of Algorithms resigned in 2003 in protest against Elsevier. So, it seems the transfer of reputation is possible. This came about after Don Knuth wrote a lengthy letter (linked from [1]) ranting against Elsevier. It's stunning that apart from isolated cases like this the scientific publishers are still holding on to their ill-gained profits. [1] http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~hal/jalg.html http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~hal/jalg.html Ceterum censeo Elsevier(um) esse delendum.

Vinnl 9y ago

...which in turn is a result of governments/funders focusing on "excellence" (whatever that means), there being far more people willing to do research than there are funds available, and prestige being used as a way to distribute those funds.

tikhonj 9y ago
It also extends to things outside finding like graduate school admissions or even peer review. On top of that, you know who's making the low-level decisions for giving grants? People from and steeped in the same academic culture. That's a much larger driving force than the politicians at the top of the funding organizations who don't even understand the intricate prestige ranking in academic fields to do anything actionable with it.
- laretluval 9y ago
  So if you think that the problem stems from a unique problem in academia's culture, then why do you think academia ended up with that culture while other endeavors didn't? Was it because of the character of academics, or because of the incentive structure they operate in?
  - tikhonj 9y ago
    I don't think it's a unique problem to academia. I recently read something in exactly the same spirit from a lawyer (almost literally "we won't hire anyone not from a T14 school"). If anything, the interesting thing to watch for is which endeavors don't have this culture.
  - 660066_rain 9y ago
    It's either human nature, or driven by wealthy, prestige-sensitive trustees at the top.

noobermin 9y ago

If you want to blame anyone, blame publishers, not scientists. Open Access fees assessed by publishers are astronomical, and fall to the scientists seeking to publish them. I haven't published in Nature yet, but my group has to fork over thousands per open access article above the usual cost. There is a disincentive to publish open access given that.

jononor 9y ago
Blaming the publishers is not very useful, they are just acting according to their self interest. Their interests are not well aligned with those of the public or scientific community, but they won't care about that until they have to. Have to focus on building up the alternatives, so that the publishers lose the power to dictate the terms. It's happening though, slowly...
- noobermin 9y ago
  As a publishing scientist, let me tell you, science publishing is not a free market. We can't just "build up the alternatives" because that is not conducive to anyone's scientific career. If it's some no name journal where you will publish along side free energy and cold fusion articles, no one will do it. The mistake is giving journals a profit incentive in the first place in a system that inherently doesn't work well in a market system. You can't have "competition" between journals, it just doesn't work that way. A handful of journals have high impact factors and so get most of the submissions, that's how it is, and they then can crank up their publishing fees because they can. Perhaps you shouldn't "blame the publishers" given they are "acting according to their self interest." I did say "If you want to blame anyone[...]," implying I don't really care to blame anyone. I admit I am more inclined to blame the publishers, but the whole system is fundamentally broken.
  - ngold 9y ago
    Blame the taxpayer. We as a nation should demand we get access to what we pay for. At this point we are funding publishers to make free money off of what was already paid for.

hateduser2 9y ago

I thought that was true everywhere? Isn't that a major reason people work at Apple, Google...? I didn't ever notice anything different about academia's concern with prestige (feel free to prove me wrong.)

tikhonj 9y ago
I think it's significantly less true in tech, even if it's still present. People are far more flexible about hiring and working with programmers of different backgrounds, and the views I've heard on tech company prestige aren't nearly as strong and rigid as what I've heard from CS researchers about other departments. (Mostly from folks at Berkeley, but only because that's where I did some research as an undergrad.)
itronitron 9y ago
the farcical aspect of the obsession with prestige in academia is that it is within such a small community, for less money, and for a narrower set of opportunities... prestige at the major tech companies comes with more pay, more opportunities, and brand name recognition

MaxBarraclough 9y ago

As far as I can tell, all young researchers hate the status quo, and want open access to succeed. No one researcher can change the system. Even the ones who believe in open access have their careers to worry about. I agree with avar's comment above - if the government required that publicly-funded research can only be published the open access way, the problem goes away. It's a prisoner's dilemma: publishing in a closed, high-prestige journal, benefits the researcher but is bad for science. If the government implemented this requirement, though, all researchers would 'instantly' be spared the temptation of 'defecting' by publishing in a closed journal.

nojvek 9y ago
I do think sites like arxiv are in the right direction. Also love the Twitter bots that tweets new papers. I make it a habit to read every new paper related to a field of my interest.

andrepd 9y ago

Tell me, when grants are awarded on the basis of if you published in high impact journals, when policy is to not publish in open access, when the vast majority of researchers, especially the youngest generation, despise the current arrangement as little more than rent-seeking by the big journals, tell me, is that the researchers' fault too? Because they are, what was it, obssessed with prestige?

visarga 9y ago

> you can definitely blame then collectively There are to risks for scientists here: the risk that their work becomes locked after publishing and their increased difficulty in getting access to other papers, on the one hand. And the risk that his/her colleague will get ahead by publishing in closed journals, while they waste their careers away with less prestigious open publications, on the other hand. The status quo is that they are more afraid of each other than the publishers, afraid that their colleague is getting ahead, so they can't prioritize open access. This deadlock needs to be cut from above.

FabHK 9y ago

> inability to collectively move to different publishing venues Sometimes it works. For example, the ACM Transactions on Algorithms came into being when the entire editorial board of the (Elsevier) Journal of Algorithms resigned in 2003 in protest against Elsevier. So, it seems the transfer of reputation is possible. This came about after Don Knuth wrote a lengthy letter (linked from [1]) ranting against Elsevier. It's stunning that apart from isolated cases like this the scientific publishers are still holding on to their ill-gained profits. [1] http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~hal/jalg.html http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~hal/jalg.html Ceterum censeo Elsevier(um) esse delendum.