8 ms·

Semis are incredibly damaging to roads, they cause 1,400x more wear than cars! [1] It seems that with current battery technology, electric semis' average weigh

Semis are incredibly damaging to roads, they cause 1,400x more wear than cars! [1] It seems that with current battery technology, electric semis' average weight is going to increase drastically, even if they remain within the allowable GVW limit. For example, a Model S weighs more than a Honda Pilot, due to the 1,200lb battery [2]! . Without the diesel tax, we're going to have to figure out another way to pay for road usage. Right now semis are heavily subsidized by everyone else (They're certainly not paying 1,400x more in fuel tax). And I suppose it would be unfair to continue to subsidize diesel, and not electric. However, as our infrastructure decays we're going to have to figure this out. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf [2] http://www.roperld.com/science/teslamodels.htm http://www.roperld.com/science/teslamodels.htm

r00fus 9y ago
How do you compare the roadwear problem to the one of massive pollution caused by burning millions of gallons of petroleum every year to move these vehicles around? I'm not sure a Model S is in the same category of vehicle as a Honda Pilot. What point are you trying to make? Agreed that funding the roadways should be a topic of discussion (also because it's private contractors - often with connections to those authorizing public funds).
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  That’s the point. Honda Pilot is an 8 passenger SUV. A much less capable car, the model S weighs as much as the Pilot. So if Tesla were to make an 8 passenger hauler, that car would weigh, what, double the size of the Pilot?
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Do people buy Model S vehicles to haul stuff. More to the point, how many Pilots are on the road fully loaded? My guess? Most people buy both cars to haul 1 person a very few miles almost every day. Again, presenting data to make a point that lacks context only detracts from your argument.
    - IgorPartola 9y ago
      Wtf are you talking about? I am presenting no data. I am presenting facts: they are different class vehicles, and yet weigh the same. There is no analysis of data necessary to reach that conclusion. Put another way: the Model S is heavier than most vehicles in its own class. What is so difficult to understand about that? What you are presenting is opinion (that most Pilot owners only drive a few miles alone) unburdened by any backing facts or data. It may be true, I don’t know. But you provide nothing to back up your claim, yet present it as fact.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Increasing vehicle volume does not do as much to increase weight as you might think. A Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport is a 4,400 lb lbs 2 seater. In comparison to the original 4,323 lb 5 seater Tesla.
    - r00fus 9y ago
      A more apt comparison, I agree - both luxury sports cars.
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    the model x is 7 seats, and weighs 5400lbs vs 4200lbs for the honda pilot.
    - IgorPartola 9y ago
      I happen to have owned a Pilot in my life. One of the nice things about it was that I could not only haul people, but also cargo. Full sized dry wall and plywood to be exact.
- froindt 9y ago
  > How do you compare the roadwear problem to the one of massive pollution caused by burning millions of gallons of petroleum every year to move these vehicles around? Maybe there should be a joule tax applied to all forms of energy, a portion of which is dedicated to environmental efforts and a portion to infrastructure maintenance? There could be a lower tax rate for green energy (perhaps no environmental element, only road and electric infrastructure costs). There was lots of debate about net metering in Nevada a year or two ago. One element from that discussion was if everyone was on solar, there wouldn't be money for maintaining the grid. My proposal is to avoid that issue by acknowledging there are costs to remaining connected to the grid even if you net meter to 0. That would address the environmental side. I think a cost/mile applied to vehicles of different classifications would be the best way to address road wear.
  - imglorp 9y ago
    We have to be careful about a road tax that distinguishes type of vehicle instead of its weight. One could easily see this becoming politicized to harm whichever industry the state's friends wanted. Eg if Old Fossil wanted a jab at New Electric to "level the field against unfair competition", slapping a big joule tax would do it.
ethagknight 9y ago
Uh, Thor and Tesla dont get to ignore GVW standards just because their tractor is heavier. You are correct about these electric trucks not paying gas tax though. Thats a problem.
- bdamm 9y ago
  A problem easily solved by requiring tolls on Interstates. Most states already operate scales. I don't see why this is hard. Next.
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    Drivers already have to keep log books. Make them submit them and pay per mile to the states they drove in.
froindt 9y ago
While it's a far cry from 1,400x more in fuel tax, semis do get "punished" for their poor fuel mileage (paying more tax per mile driven) compared to a person in a Prius. In Iowa, the tax is 30.8 cents/gallon for gasoline and 32.5 cents/gallon for diesel. [1] At 53 mpg and 6 mpg, the tax cost per miles is 0.616 cents and 5.42 cents respectively. And of course electric vehicles avoid this tax entirely. Applying the tax on a per-gallon basis is great for environmentalism, as it encourages higher fuel efficiency. Applying it by vehicle classification and cost/mile could eliminate the subsidization, but would be a huge pain to keep track of. [1] https://tax.iowa.gov/iowa-fuel-tax-rate-changes-effective-july-1-2015 https://tax.iowa.gov/iowa-fuel-tax-rate-changes-effective-ju...
- vvanders 9y ago
  > And of course electric vehicles avoid this tax entirely. That's hardly true, most states have enacted an EV tax on registration that covers the same wear and tear from the gas tax. When I last ran the numbers I paid more for the EV tax(which I'm happy to do in order to pay my fair share) then I did in gas.
  - linuxps2 9y ago
    100% of that goes to the state you purchase/register in, correct? There is currently no federal EV tax that would offset federal fuel taxes that help fund interstate highways, correct?
    - vvanders 9y ago
      The assertion was the EV skip the tax completely. That said the majority of the gas tax goes to the state level(at least here in WA state). There's also a simple solution to the federal tax, add it to registration just the same way the state tax works.
      - cstejerean 9y ago
        There is an even easier solution, toll all federal highways and replace the fuel tax with that.
bhuga 9y ago
Is the Model S/Pilot comparison useful here? Wouldn't most of the weight of a semi would be in the trailer? It doesn't seem intuitive to me that increasing the weight of the cab, even by several multiples, would meaningfully increases the weight of the semi.
- zardo 9y ago
  It won't, because the gross combination weight is limited by law. Any weight you add to the cab comes out of the payload for a vehicle application that hauls at the legal limit.
- ProfessorLayton 9y ago
  Per the report, road wear does not increase linearly with weight, so more semis at or near the weight limit will end up damaging the roads more overall. Page 9 shows that even pickups cause 7x more wear than a passenger car. Additionally, any extra weight comes from the haul capacity of the truck, this means that more trips will be needed to move the same amount of cargo, and again causing a disproportional amount of wear on the road.
teej 9y ago
Rhode Island recently added tolls to the main interstate targeting trucks passing through. If you need to pay for usage, charging for usage certainly seems reasonable.
- blang 9y ago
  I believe that also is the case on the tappan zee bridge. IIRC when going south bound cars don't have a toll but commercial trucks do.
- thewhitetulip 9y ago
  In India, almost all major highways have tolls and the toll amount keeps on rising.
rz2k 9y ago
Are the semis being subsidized, or the consumption habits of end consumers? Wear on the road network is just one of the externalities of trucking that is incompletely priced, but shipping companies aren't driving trucks around for their own amusement.
- tikhonj 9y ago
  The way a company like a retailer delivers goods is an implementation detail under their control, not dictated purely by consumer habits. If the cost structure of shipping by truck changed, retailers would do a better job of traffic optimization or would even work out new operational processes that used fewer trucks. I know first-have that the current system has some real slack even at large retail chains. Example: a lot of companies are not doing a great job of planning multi-hop truck routes and instead send a less full truck to every location. Similarly, the trucks are only full in one direction because that's easier to manage than planning routes that, for example, drop off at a store then visit a vendor before returning to a distribution center. If trucking costs increased in proportion to road wear, you can bet improving these operational processes will be a higher priority!
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    ...less full truck... Every time we've gotten a truck-shipped freight delivery in the last decade, the trailer has been mostly empty. Our business is not at the end of the road, either.
dagss 9y ago
Hmm. Could one simply put on many more wheels? It has to be some nonlinear function of pressure per wheel?
- z2 9y ago
  Purely speculation, but it seems at least that this would greatly increase friction.
aetherson 9y ago
We can afford more road maintenance.
xpda 9y ago
The Tesla Model S weighs significantly less than most pickups and large SUVs on the road today. Tesla's heaviest, the Model X, is significantly lighter than the GMC Yukon, for example. I don't see the logic in this argument. Electric vehicles are not going to destroy the roads.
- fasteddie 9y ago
  Even if a Tesla Semi weighs the same than an unloaded diesel semi, the point would still stand. Diesel taxes are one way to help make the truck industry cover the costs of road improvements, which electric semis will never have to pay. This requires a new funding source given how much semis destroy the roads.
  - gleglegle 9y ago
    In a similar fashion, Diesel is not charged for the social cost that its carbon and NOX emissions cause on the health of the communities through which they drive. They should be, but regulations will take time to catch up to technology effects in both cases.
- aggie 9y ago
  Road maintenance is funded primarily through taxation of gas and diesel [1]. As electric vehicles don't use either, they do not pay a proportional share of the cost to maintain roads. The fuel tax has been an elegant funding solution because it scales both with mileage and vehicle weight (as heavier vehicles use more fuel). Further, electric vehicles weigh more than comparable gas or diesel vehicles, making the ratio of road wear to tax contribution even more disparate. Even if you agree electric vehicles are good for society overall, we will need to find a new way to fund road maintenance. [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16301482 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - lafar6502 9y ago
dghughes 9y ago
In winter climate regions an average everyday car with studded tires is very damaging to roads. In my town you will get a fine if you leave studded winter tires on into the spring.
tomarr 9y ago
Whilst true this is also misleading in that road wear is not completely from trafficking, and so the 1400x just looks at the marginal difference. The proportion of wear accountable to your relatively fixed externalities (weather, water, utilities) depends on the type of road and the location. But say if 60% of the wear is due to weather and water, the 1400x factor comes across very misleading. To put more simply - if you banned semis roads would not last 1400x longer, nowhere near in fact.
bobbles 9y ago
> Right now semis are heavily subsidized by everyone else Ok but its not like these guys are just joyriding around, they are providing a service to make sure that people get the things they need and food to eat
anitil 9y ago
In Australia there is a tax on biodiesel (cooking oil) [1] for this reason, even if you source it yourself. I imagine a similar thing will be necessary for electric [1] https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Excise-and-excise-equivalent-goods/Fuel-excise/Biofuels/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Excise-and-excise-equivalent...
- ericd 9y ago
  Or we could just skip the proxies and bill people directly based on the estimated road damage done based on number of miles driven and the type of car driven. We could use the ubiquitous highway cameras to track that. Call it a "road use tax". I guess people might not appreciate the government tracking their movements, though.
ams6110 9y ago
Semis don't pay more fuel tax per gallon but they pay significantly higher registration, and higher tolls on toll roads, and probably other taxes and fees depending on state. They also face substantial fines if they are caught overweight. Whether this approaches the cost of the road damage they cause I don't know, but they do also perform the useful function of moving goods from place to place.
- desdiv 9y ago
  Registration, licenses, and tolls combined make up for less than 3% of the marginal cost per mile of the trucking industry. Registration, licenses, and tolls combined cost roughly the same amount as tire wear. [0] Table 7: average marginal cost per mile, 2008-2013 at http://www.atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ATRI-Operational-Costs-of-Trucking-2014-FINAL.pdf http://www.atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ATRI-O...
lxmorj 9y ago
Charge a fixed amount per weight-distance?

r00fus 9y ago

How do you compare the roadwear problem to the one of massive pollution caused by burning millions of gallons of petroleum every year to move these vehicles around? I'm not sure a Model S is in the same category of vehicle as a Honda Pilot. What point are you trying to make? Agreed that funding the roadways should be a topic of discussion (also because it's private contractors - often with connections to those authorizing public funds).

IgorPartola 9y ago
That’s the point. Honda Pilot is an 8 passenger SUV. A much less capable car, the model S weighs as much as the Pilot. So if Tesla were to make an 8 passenger hauler, that car would weigh, what, double the size of the Pilot?
- r00fus 9y ago
  Do people buy Model S vehicles to haul stuff. More to the point, how many Pilots are on the road fully loaded? My guess? Most people buy both cars to haul 1 person a very few miles almost every day. Again, presenting data to make a point that lacks context only detracts from your argument.
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    Wtf are you talking about? I am presenting no data. I am presenting facts: they are different class vehicles, and yet weigh the same. There is no analysis of data necessary to reach that conclusion. Put another way: the Model S is heavier than most vehicles in its own class. What is so difficult to understand about that? What you are presenting is opinion (that most Pilot owners only drive a few miles alone) unburdened by any backing facts or data. It may be true, I don’t know. But you provide nothing to back up your claim, yet present it as fact.
- Retric 9y ago
  Increasing vehicle volume does not do as much to increase weight as you might think. A Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport is a 4,400 lb lbs 2 seater. In comparison to the original 4,323 lb 5 seater Tesla.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    A more apt comparison, I agree - both luxury sports cars.
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  the model x is 7 seats, and weighs 5400lbs vs 4200lbs for the honda pilot.
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    I happen to have owned a Pilot in my life. One of the nice things about it was that I could not only haul people, but also cargo. Full sized dry wall and plywood to be exact.
froindt 9y ago
> How do you compare the roadwear problem to the one of massive pollution caused by burning millions of gallons of petroleum every year to move these vehicles around? Maybe there should be a joule tax applied to all forms of energy, a portion of which is dedicated to environmental efforts and a portion to infrastructure maintenance? There could be a lower tax rate for green energy (perhaps no environmental element, only road and electric infrastructure costs). There was lots of debate about net metering in Nevada a year or two ago. One element from that discussion was if everyone was on solar, there wouldn't be money for maintaining the grid. My proposal is to avoid that issue by acknowledging there are costs to remaining connected to the grid even if you net meter to 0. That would address the environmental side. I think a cost/mile applied to vehicles of different classifications would be the best way to address road wear.
- imglorp 9y ago
  We have to be careful about a road tax that distinguishes type of vehicle instead of its weight. One could easily see this becoming politicized to harm whichever industry the state's friends wanted. Eg if Old Fossil wanted a jab at New Electric to "level the field against unfair competition", slapping a big joule tax would do it.

ethagknight 9y ago

Uh, Thor and Tesla dont get to ignore GVW standards just because their tractor is heavier. You are correct about these electric trucks not paying gas tax though. Thats a problem.

bdamm 9y ago
A problem easily solved by requiring tolls on Interstates. Most states already operate scales. I don't see why this is hard. Next.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  Drivers already have to keep log books. Make them submit them and pay per mile to the states they drove in.

froindt 9y ago

While it's a far cry from 1,400x more in fuel tax, semis do get "punished" for their poor fuel mileage (paying more tax per mile driven) compared to a person in a Prius. In Iowa, the tax is 30.8 cents/gallon for gasoline and 32.5 cents/gallon for diesel. [1] At 53 mpg and 6 mpg, the tax cost per miles is 0.616 cents and 5.42 cents respectively. And of course electric vehicles avoid this tax entirely. Applying the tax on a per-gallon basis is great for environmentalism, as it encourages higher fuel efficiency. Applying it by vehicle classification and cost/mile could eliminate the subsidization, but would be a huge pain to keep track of. [1] https://tax.iowa.gov/iowa-fuel-tax-rate-changes-effective-july-1-2015 https://tax.iowa.gov/iowa-fuel-tax-rate-changes-effective-ju...

vvanders 9y ago
> And of course electric vehicles avoid this tax entirely. That's hardly true, most states have enacted an EV tax on registration that covers the same wear and tear from the gas tax. When I last ran the numbers I paid more for the EV tax(which I'm happy to do in order to pay my fair share) then I did in gas.
- linuxps2 9y ago
  100% of that goes to the state you purchase/register in, correct? There is currently no federal EV tax that would offset federal fuel taxes that help fund interstate highways, correct?
  - vvanders 9y ago
    The assertion was the EV skip the tax completely. That said the majority of the gas tax goes to the state level(at least here in WA state). There's also a simple solution to the federal tax, add it to registration just the same way the state tax works.
    - cstejerean 9y ago
      There is an even easier solution, toll all federal highways and replace the fuel tax with that.

bhuga 9y ago

Is the Model S/Pilot comparison useful here? Wouldn't most of the weight of a semi would be in the trailer? It doesn't seem intuitive to me that increasing the weight of the cab, even by several multiples, would meaningfully increases the weight of the semi.

zardo 9y ago
It won't, because the gross combination weight is limited by law. Any weight you add to the cab comes out of the payload for a vehicle application that hauls at the legal limit.
ProfessorLayton 9y ago
Per the report, road wear does not increase linearly with weight, so more semis at or near the weight limit will end up damaging the roads more overall. Page 9 shows that even pickups cause 7x more wear than a passenger car. Additionally, any extra weight comes from the haul capacity of the truck, this means that more trips will be needed to move the same amount of cargo, and again causing a disproportional amount of wear on the road.

teej 9y ago

Rhode Island recently added tolls to the main interstate targeting trucks passing through. If you need to pay for usage, charging for usage certainly seems reasonable.

blang 9y ago
I believe that also is the case on the tappan zee bridge. IIRC when going south bound cars don't have a toll but commercial trucks do.
thewhitetulip 9y ago
In India, almost all major highways have tolls and the toll amount keeps on rising.

rz2k 9y ago

Are the semis being subsidized, or the consumption habits of end consumers? Wear on the road network is just one of the externalities of trucking that is incompletely priced, but shipping companies aren't driving trucks around for their own amusement.

tikhonj 9y ago
The way a company like a retailer delivers goods is an implementation detail under their control, not dictated purely by consumer habits. If the cost structure of shipping by truck changed, retailers would do a better job of traffic optimization or would even work out new operational processes that used fewer trucks. I know first-have that the current system has some real slack even at large retail chains. Example: a lot of companies are not doing a great job of planning multi-hop truck routes and instead send a less full truck to every location. Similarly, the trucks are only full in one direction because that's easier to manage than planning routes that, for example, drop off at a store then visit a vendor before returning to a distribution center. If trucking costs increased in proportion to road wear, you can bet improving these operational processes will be a higher priority!
- jessaustin 9y ago
  ...less full truck... Every time we've gotten a truck-shipped freight delivery in the last decade, the trailer has been mostly empty. Our business is not at the end of the road, either.

dagss 9y ago

Hmm. Could one simply put on many more wheels? It has to be some nonlinear function of pressure per wheel?

z2 9y ago
Purely speculation, but it seems at least that this would greatly increase friction.

aetherson 9y ago

We can afford more road maintenance.

xpda 9y ago

The Tesla Model S weighs significantly less than most pickups and large SUVs on the road today. Tesla's heaviest, the Model X, is significantly lighter than the GMC Yukon, for example. I don't see the logic in this argument. Electric vehicles are not going to destroy the roads.

fasteddie 9y ago
Even if a Tesla Semi weighs the same than an unloaded diesel semi, the point would still stand. Diesel taxes are one way to help make the truck industry cover the costs of road improvements, which electric semis will never have to pay. This requires a new funding source given how much semis destroy the roads.
- gleglegle 9y ago
  In a similar fashion, Diesel is not charged for the social cost that its carbon and NOX emissions cause on the health of the communities through which they drive. They should be, but regulations will take time to catch up to technology effects in both cases.
aggie 9y ago
Road maintenance is funded primarily through taxation of gas and diesel [1]. As electric vehicles don't use either, they do not pay a proportional share of the cost to maintain roads. The fuel tax has been an elegant funding solution because it scales both with mileage and vehicle weight (as heavier vehicles use more fuel). Further, electric vehicles weigh more than comparable gas or diesel vehicles, making the ratio of road wear to tax contribution even more disparate. Even if you agree electric vehicles are good for society overall, we will need to find a new way to fund road maintenance. [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16301482 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lafar6502 9y ago

dghughes 9y ago

In winter climate regions an average everyday car with studded tires is very damaging to roads. In my town you will get a fine if you leave studded winter tires on into the spring.

tomarr 9y ago

Whilst true this is also misleading in that road wear is not completely from trafficking, and so the 1400x just looks at the marginal difference. The proportion of wear accountable to your relatively fixed externalities (weather, water, utilities) depends on the type of road and the location. But say if 60% of the wear is due to weather and water, the 1400x factor comes across very misleading. To put more simply - if you banned semis roads would not last 1400x longer, nowhere near in fact.

bobbles 9y ago

> Right now semis are heavily subsidized by everyone else Ok but its not like these guys are just joyriding around, they are providing a service to make sure that people get the things they need and food to eat

anitil 9y ago

In Australia there is a tax on biodiesel (cooking oil) [1] for this reason, even if you source it yourself. I imagine a similar thing will be necessary for electric [1] https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Excise-and-excise-equivalent-goods/Fuel-excise/Biofuels/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Excise-and-excise-equivalent...

ericd 9y ago
Or we could just skip the proxies and bill people directly based on the estimated road damage done based on number of miles driven and the type of car driven. We could use the ubiquitous highway cameras to track that. Call it a "road use tax". I guess people might not appreciate the government tracking their movements, though.

ams6110 9y ago

Semis don't pay more fuel tax per gallon but they pay significantly higher registration, and higher tolls on toll roads, and probably other taxes and fees depending on state. They also face substantial fines if they are caught overweight. Whether this approaches the cost of the road damage they cause I don't know, but they do also perform the useful function of moving goods from place to place.

desdiv 9y ago
Registration, licenses, and tolls combined make up for less than 3% of the marginal cost per mile of the trucking industry. Registration, licenses, and tolls combined cost roughly the same amount as tire wear. [0] Table 7: average marginal cost per mile, 2008-2013 at http://www.atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ATRI-Operational-Costs-of-Trucking-2014-FINAL.pdf http://www.atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ATRI-O...

lxmorj 9y ago

Charge a fixed amount per weight-distance?