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> In that situation we've defined a problem: "girls are not interested in technology to the same extent that boys are" Are you sure that's the problem? What if

> In that situation we've defined a problem: "girls are not interested in technology to the same extent that boys are" Are you sure that's the problem? What if you restate it as "at some point in their lives, girls become less interested in technology than boys" or "at some point in their lives, girls' interest in technology declines, unlike boys'" Now you have very different problems and very different solutions. Why does that interest decline? What is driving it? Could it be a self-propagating, hostile, "boy's club" environment in technology? Maybe you don't even need to market to them, if they never lose the interest in it. And based on some data, I believe that my definition of the problem is probably closer to the real problem than yours: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... So maybe we're asking the wrong questions.

stinkytaco 9y ago
I'm not sure what that data shows us. It shows us that more women get engineering degrees and fewer computer science degrees since 1980? It shows us that more women get degrees period, actually. It's also showing us a snapshot in time: women between the ages of 18-22. That doesn't really address at all the problem of "girls before 18". Girls have only recently drawn even with boys in attendance in high school stem classes, and still lag quite a bit in computer science. And minorities do even worse [1]. Anecdotaly, my experience also bears this out. The First Robotics clubs in my area (aimed at ages 9-14) are majority boys, despite several teams (including my daughter's school) being coached by female engineers specifically hoping to encourage more girls. I don't think it's the wrong question. [1]: https://ngcproject.org/statistics https://ngcproject.org/statistics
- ucaetano 9y ago
  > I'm not sure what that data shows us. It shows that women were interested in tech, but something happened in the 80's that mostly killed that interest. So the problem isn't that females aren't interested, but that something kills that interest. What is that?
  - stinkytaco 9y ago
    Well, for computer science, that does seem to be the case. But not for engineering, physical sciences or math. And considering that most people are granted a degree before they enter the workforce, I don't believe it can entirely be the workforce culture that's deterring them. So I guess I would argue that it's just as likely to be how we message technology as how we treat women in the workforce, if not both.
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      Or it could be that computer science (what most people refer as "tech") came to be dominated by the boy's club videogame/nerd culture from the early 80's, which pushed women out. It goes back to another topic here on HN: I don't know of any other career so dominated by a culture as SWE/tech.
      - Danihan 9y ago
        Sure, I think you're probably correct that rampant video game culture probably did begin to alienate women, even back in the eighties, since they saw that computers were mostly being used as tools for violent competition and most women were not very interested in that. That's where our opinions will probably diverge though, because I also believe boys glean more enjoyment from video games simply because they are biologically-predisposed to enjoy violent / high-stakes competitions more intensely. http://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html http://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.... http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0042/7590/Do_Boys_and_Girls_View_Competition_in_Different_Ways.pdf http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0042/7590/Do_Boy... It's not just video games, look at the gender ratios in competitive poker, or chess, or debate. All very similar. Since there seems to be a strong chance that the root of the problem is innate / hormonal / biological it's not an issue that's "easy" to even rationally discuss, let alone solve, as you keep stating throughout the thread.
        ucaetano 9y ago
        > video games simply because they are biologically-predisposed to enjoy violent / high-stakes competitions more intensely. You're making the assumption that all games must be competitive and violent and therefore women will enjoy it less. That is wrong. Not only women enjoy video games as much as men, they already outnumber men in gaming in many markets. Every time you make an assumption, think if that assumption is being driven by gender stereotypes. "Since there seems to be a strong chance that the root of the problem is innate / hormonal / biological it's not an issue that's "easy" to even rationally discuss, let alone solve, as you keep stating throughout the thread." No, women liked technology, then they were pushed out by a hostile culture. The problem isn't hormonal or biological, it's cultural. The problem isn't women not liking violent games, is men treating women like shit.

stinkytaco 9y ago

I'm not sure what that data shows us. It shows us that more women get engineering degrees and fewer computer science degrees since 1980? It shows us that more women get degrees period, actually. It's also showing us a snapshot in time: women between the ages of 18-22. That doesn't really address at all the problem of "girls before 18". Girls have only recently drawn even with boys in attendance in high school stem classes, and still lag quite a bit in computer science. And minorities do even worse [1]. Anecdotaly, my experience also bears this out. The First Robotics clubs in my area (aimed at ages 9-14) are majority boys, despite several teams (including my daughter's school) being coached by female engineers specifically hoping to encourage more girls. I don't think it's the wrong question. [1]: https://ngcproject.org/statistics https://ngcproject.org/statistics

ucaetano 9y ago
> I'm not sure what that data shows us. It shows that women were interested in tech, but something happened in the 80's that mostly killed that interest. So the problem isn't that females aren't interested, but that something kills that interest. What is that?
- stinkytaco 9y ago
  Well, for computer science, that does seem to be the case. But not for engineering, physical sciences or math. And considering that most people are granted a degree before they enter the workforce, I don't believe it can entirely be the workforce culture that's deterring them. So I guess I would argue that it's just as likely to be how we message technology as how we treat women in the workforce, if not both.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    Or it could be that computer science (what most people refer as "tech") came to be dominated by the boy's club videogame/nerd culture from the early 80's, which pushed women out. It goes back to another topic here on HN: I don't know of any other career so dominated by a culture as SWE/tech.
    - Danihan 9y ago
      Sure, I think you're probably correct that rampant video game culture probably did begin to alienate women, even back in the eighties, since they saw that computers were mostly being used as tools for violent competition and most women were not very interested in that. That's where our opinions will probably diverge though, because I also believe boys glean more enjoyment from video games simply because they are biologically-predisposed to enjoy violent / high-stakes competitions more intensely. http://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html http://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.... http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0042/7590/Do_Boys_and_Girls_View_Competition_in_Different_Ways.pdf http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0042/7590/Do_Boy... It's not just video games, look at the gender ratios in competitive poker, or chess, or debate. All very similar. Since there seems to be a strong chance that the root of the problem is innate / hormonal / biological it's not an issue that's "easy" to even rationally discuss, let alone solve, as you keep stating throughout the thread.
      - ucaetano 9y ago
        > video games simply because they are biologically-predisposed to enjoy violent / high-stakes competitions more intensely. You're making the assumption that all games must be competitive and violent and therefore women will enjoy it less. That is wrong. Not only women enjoy video games as much as men, they already outnumber men in gaming in many markets. Every time you make an assumption, think if that assumption is being driven by gender stereotypes. "Since there seems to be a strong chance that the root of the problem is innate / hormonal / biological it's not an issue that's "easy" to even rationally discuss, let alone solve, as you keep stating throughout the thread." No, women liked technology, then they were pushed out by a hostile culture. The problem isn't hormonal or biological, it's cultural. The problem isn't women not liking violent games, is men treating women like shit.