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Totally agree with you here. I think middle school is actually the prime age to start teaching it but not the drag/drop scratch/block type stuff you see in the

Totally agree with you here. I think middle school is actually the prime age to start teaching it but not the drag/drop scratch/block type stuff you see in the lower grades. It should be a requirement just like Math and English.

stinkytaco 9y ago
Is there something wrong with the drag and drop approach? I find that working with kids on programming lego robots through their drag and drop approach is fairly engaging to them and does communicate concepts pretty well (loops, arrays, variables and so on). Of course you need to move them to a more "grown up" syntax eventually, but I suspect that comes as they need to solve more complex programs.
- 20years 9y ago
  I think the drag/drop tools are great for the younger kids but once they reach middle school age they are generally ready for something more. I periodically teach middle school coding workshops. One of the top questions the kids ask at the start of a new workshop is will they be using scratch or hand coding. They associate scratch with the young kids and want more control by this age.
  - Steve_T_online 9y ago
    Scratch of course is a very well known drag and drop coding environment, but it has been used in the UK to produce programs that can achieve A* grades at GCSE. Scratch can handle variable casting, iteration, IF statements and lots more besides. I have a whole bunch of 12 year olds who are all over Scratch, producing great code, and not at all perceiving it as somehow less than Java or Python. In fact last year, my 14 year old Year 10s came second in a Scratch competition in the Middle East, winning Apple Watches. So yes drag and drop tools can be seen as being a tad babyish, but when pushed they can be very effective.
r3bl 9y ago
In my country, it is an obligatory class at the equivalent of the US middle school level (10-14 year old). However, doing something as complicated as "computing and informatics" (a literal translation of the subject name) that early in the school education just made it absolutely terrible, much worse than the traditional classes were in my school. I still excelled at it, mostly because of books (the Internet wasn't as widespread as it is today), and was a part of the state-sponsored small contests that test student's knowledge in that subject. Finished first on the municipality level, shared the second position on the regional level, and didn't go to the state level competition (was a bit too far away). That's what made me pursue IT further. However, all I've ever learned during those four years was: * Installing a pirated copy of Windows XP on desktops. * "Blind typing" (typing properly on QWERTY keyboard without looking at the keyboard) and clicking on things in MS Office (2003) to make the document appear as in given screenshot. * Mashing two malfunctioning desktops together to create a functioning one. * Very basic programming (mostly if-else statements and loops). In QBASIC (from 1991). In 2008. (edit: This is what the competitions were about.) My point being: You can still introduce it as an obligatory subject and fuck it up pretty badly. Including myself, two out of 120 kids in that school in my generation continued pursuing IT by joining specialized high schools (also a thing in my country) dedicated to IT. Neither me nor the second kid are female. So, while I agree that it's a step in the right progress (the one which my country made in the second half of '00s, but fucked up pretty badly in its execution), it's far from being the final step. It brought us the equivalent of nothingness in spreading the IT. The IT is still associated as a "male field", regardless of the fact that the subject is obligatory for everyone in that age range for about 15 years.
- 20years 9y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experience. Very interesting. What country are you from? "However, doing something as complicated as "computing and informatics" (a literal translation of the subject name) that early in the school education just made it absolutely terrible, much worse than the traditional classes were in my school." Oh wow! Yeah, that seems like a little much for middle school. I was thinking more so at the level of teaching them how to code fun stuff in Python or JavaScript. Let's not scare kids away at this age just yet and it sounds like the program your school had did just that :( "The IT is still associated as a "male field", regardless of the fact that the subject is obligatory for everyone in that age range for about 15 years." Honestly, I am not even so sure that requiring it will necessarily increase the count of women that go into this field. If anything, it will at least introduce it to more women showing them possible opportunities. I as a women in tech for 20 years have my own theories on why many women don't go into this profession but they are unpopular opinions here. The main reason I would love to see it included as a main subject is because I want our youth (men and women) to be prepared for the jobs of our future. I truly believe that almost every profession will require programmers or tech specific roles in the very near future and our education system is not preparing our youth for that.

stinkytaco 9y ago

Is there something wrong with the drag and drop approach? I find that working with kids on programming lego robots through their drag and drop approach is fairly engaging to them and does communicate concepts pretty well (loops, arrays, variables and so on). Of course you need to move them to a more "grown up" syntax eventually, but I suspect that comes as they need to solve more complex programs.

20years 9y ago
I think the drag/drop tools are great for the younger kids but once they reach middle school age they are generally ready for something more. I periodically teach middle school coding workshops. One of the top questions the kids ask at the start of a new workshop is will they be using scratch or hand coding. They associate scratch with the young kids and want more control by this age.
- Steve_T_online 9y ago
  Scratch of course is a very well known drag and drop coding environment, but it has been used in the UK to produce programs that can achieve A* grades at GCSE. Scratch can handle variable casting, iteration, IF statements and lots more besides. I have a whole bunch of 12 year olds who are all over Scratch, producing great code, and not at all perceiving it as somehow less than Java or Python. In fact last year, my 14 year old Year 10s came second in a Scratch competition in the Middle East, winning Apple Watches. So yes drag and drop tools can be seen as being a tad babyish, but when pushed they can be very effective.

r3bl 9y ago

In my country, it is an obligatory class at the equivalent of the US middle school level (10-14 year old). However, doing something as complicated as "computing and informatics" (a literal translation of the subject name) that early in the school education just made it absolutely terrible, much worse than the traditional classes were in my school. I still excelled at it, mostly because of books (the Internet wasn't as widespread as it is today), and was a part of the state-sponsored small contests that test student's knowledge in that subject. Finished first on the municipality level, shared the second position on the regional level, and didn't go to the state level competition (was a bit too far away). That's what made me pursue IT further. However, all I've ever learned during those four years was: * Installing a pirated copy of Windows XP on desktops. * "Blind typing" (typing properly on QWERTY keyboard without looking at the keyboard) and clicking on things in MS Office (2003) to make the document appear as in given screenshot. * Mashing two malfunctioning desktops together to create a functioning one. * Very basic programming (mostly if-else statements and loops). In QBASIC (from 1991). In 2008. (edit: This is what the competitions were about.) My point being: You can still introduce it as an obligatory subject and fuck it up pretty badly. Including myself, two out of 120 kids in that school in my generation continued pursuing IT by joining specialized high schools (also a thing in my country) dedicated to IT. Neither me nor the second kid are female. So, while I agree that it's a step in the right progress (the one which my country made in the second half of '00s, but fucked up pretty badly in its execution), it's far from being the final step. It brought us the equivalent of nothingness in spreading the IT. The IT is still associated as a "male field", regardless of the fact that the subject is obligatory for everyone in that age range for about 15 years.

20years 9y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. Very interesting. What country are you from? "However, doing something as complicated as "computing and informatics" (a literal translation of the subject name) that early in the school education just made it absolutely terrible, much worse than the traditional classes were in my school." Oh wow! Yeah, that seems like a little much for middle school. I was thinking more so at the level of teaching them how to code fun stuff in Python or JavaScript. Let's not scare kids away at this age just yet and it sounds like the program your school had did just that :( "The IT is still associated as a "male field", regardless of the fact that the subject is obligatory for everyone in that age range for about 15 years." Honestly, I am not even so sure that requiring it will necessarily increase the count of women that go into this field. If anything, it will at least introduce it to more women showing them possible opportunities. I as a women in tech for 20 years have my own theories on why many women don't go into this profession but they are unpopular opinions here. The main reason I would love to see it included as a main subject is because I want our youth (men and women) to be prepared for the jobs of our future. I truly believe that almost every profession will require programmers or tech specific roles in the very near future and our education system is not preparing our youth for that.