10 ms·

A ban won't stop crypto any more than it stops illegal drugs, prostitution, etc. That said, there would be an effect on the crypto markets if a handful of major

A ban won't stop crypto any more than it stops illegal drugs, prostitution, etc. That said, there would be an effect on the crypto markets if a handful of major nations took action. So the question I have would be: will they aim for the taxes (presumably allowing crypto trading), or for an outright ban?

kazagistar 9y ago
Sure, but unlike drugs or prostitution, aggressive police action doesn't harm any underprivileged classes, but rather a bunch of affluent tax evaders.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Do you think most people owning cryptocurrencies are affluent tax evaders?
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Well, they are now the price has shot up. Although this does remind us that "affluent" and "liquid" are not the same thing and that capital gains tax usually requires realising gains to be a taxable event.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    The 1000 or so majority owners probably are.
  - WJW 9y ago
    Yes? It's certainly not the people struggling to buy food if that's what you are implying.
    - noarchy 9y ago
      They may be affluent, particularly when compared to people struggling to buy food. That doesn't make them tax evaders. Though it should be added that the tax situation regarding crypotcurrencies isn't clear in every country.
    - neuro_imager 9y ago
      Its ironic that the same people who keep saying cryptocurrency has no underlying value, that its just a speculative bubble, are saying that profits from its increase in price should be aggressively taxed.
      - s73ver_ 9y ago
        I don't see why it's ironic. Whether something is useful or not, and whether it's increases in value should be covered under financial taxes like any other commodity are separate issues.
        neuro_imager 9y ago
        Commodity: noun, plural commodities. 1.an article of trade or commerce, especially a product as distinguished from a service. 2.something of use, advantage, or value. 3.Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals. 4.Obsolete. a quantity of goods. So if you're saying its a commodity (and therefore should be taxed), it has value (and has to be based on something). But semantics aside, taxation is theft, even more so in this case - there's no justifiable reason to hand over a portion of the gains to a government that had no involvement in the creation of the source of revenue.
        s73ver_ 9y ago
        "But semantics aside, taxation is theft," No, not in the slightest.
        dang 9y ago
        > taxation is theft Please keep generic ideological tangents off HN. They lead to angry-samey discussion rather than thoughtful-curious. Fortunately that didn't happen in this case, but then not all sparks lead to wildfires, even in a dry forest.
    - dmichulke 9y ago
      Such as e.g. affluent tax evaders in Zimbabwe and Venezuela, or in Argentina a few years ago? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/31/africa/zimbabwe-bitcoin-surge/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/31/africa/zimbabwe-bitcoin-su...
- neuro_imager 9y ago
  The people in Venezuela and Zimbabwe that are now using crypto as an opportunity not to starve now that their fiat currency is worth less than toilet paper disagree. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/venezuelans-bitcoin-boom-survival-speculation-51769668 http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/venezuelans-bitco... edit: Rather than downvote - could you please explain why you think crypto is not beneficial to the billions of people worldwide currently excluded from the financial system?
  - cmurf 9y ago
    I don't know why people are downvoting, but what I'd like to know is how prevalent Bitcoin usage is in each country. Is it 10%? 50%? Who is it leaving behind? The article suggests it's not based on a scientific sample. I also wonder what the skew is in usage demographically and geographically. And then I'd like to see this contrasted with other hyperinflation instances were people abandon the local currency and start trading in either a neighbor's currency or even USD.
    - neuro_imager 9y ago
      Its probably impossible to quantify (mostly because those people using crypto are largely doing it at risk of imprisonment or death) - I'd imagine its a small number of tech savvy individuals.
    - ufo 9y ago
      I always downvote those Venezuela posts because they are invariably Bitcoin propaganda. The linked stories inevitably originate in a bitcoin news site and are backed by more wishful thinking than actual data.
      - neuro_imager 9y ago
        The article I linked to was from ABC news (as mainstream a news source as you could find). How is this propaganda? You're saying people in countries with hyperinflated currency have no use for crypto and don't use it? Can you back this up? Can you explain why there are significant premiums for Bitcoin when buying from exchanges from these countries? Or is this propaganda too? Of course there isn't data (except of course from the exchange rates). These people are breaking the law and at risk of death or imprisonment. What type of evidence would satisfy you?
watoc 9y ago
If South Korea bans exchanges in the country or at least restrict their operations that could have a major impact. It would still be easy for Koreans to trade one crypto for another but much more difficult to exchange crypto for USD or any other currency.
jacobr 9y ago
I don't think law makers ever expect a law to stop a criminal behaviour. Making it more difficult (remove apps, shut down web sites) is likely to have some impact though.
- neuro_imager 9y ago
  What is the crime here exactly? Breaking up the financial cartels? Regardless, I have no doubt that the government will do their best to use this as yet another opportunity to steal wealth from their citizens.
  - jacobr 9y ago
    You could consider it a crime to help facilitate actions that can be a danger to the society and individuals, like others have explained elsewhere in comments. This would be similar to unregulated lotteries, ponzi schemes, smoking bans, etc. I definitely don't agree about criminalisation of cryptocurrencies (which also didn't happen), but there are valid points that are not only about stealing wealth.

kazagistar 9y ago

Sure, but unlike drugs or prostitution, aggressive police action doesn't harm any underprivileged classes, but rather a bunch of affluent tax evaders.

mtgx 9y ago
Do you think most people owning cryptocurrencies are affluent tax evaders?
- pjc50 9y ago
  Well, they are now the price has shot up. Although this does remind us that "affluent" and "liquid" are not the same thing and that capital gains tax usually requires realising gains to be a taxable event.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  The 1000 or so majority owners probably are.
- WJW 9y ago
  Yes? It's certainly not the people struggling to buy food if that's what you are implying.
  - noarchy 9y ago
    They may be affluent, particularly when compared to people struggling to buy food. That doesn't make them tax evaders. Though it should be added that the tax situation regarding crypotcurrencies isn't clear in every country.
  - neuro_imager 9y ago
    Its ironic that the same people who keep saying cryptocurrency has no underlying value, that its just a speculative bubble, are saying that profits from its increase in price should be aggressively taxed.
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      I don't see why it's ironic. Whether something is useful or not, and whether it's increases in value should be covered under financial taxes like any other commodity are separate issues.
      - neuro_imager 9y ago
        Commodity: noun, plural commodities. 1.an article of trade or commerce, especially a product as distinguished from a service. 2.something of use, advantage, or value. 3.Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals. 4.Obsolete. a quantity of goods. So if you're saying its a commodity (and therefore should be taxed), it has value (and has to be based on something). But semantics aside, taxation is theft, even more so in this case - there's no justifiable reason to hand over a portion of the gains to a government that had no involvement in the creation of the source of revenue.
        s73ver_ 9y ago
        "But semantics aside, taxation is theft," No, not in the slightest.
        dang 9y ago
        > taxation is theft Please keep generic ideological tangents off HN. They lead to angry-samey discussion rather than thoughtful-curious. Fortunately that didn't happen in this case, but then not all sparks lead to wildfires, even in a dry forest.
  - dmichulke 9y ago
    Such as e.g. affluent tax evaders in Zimbabwe and Venezuela, or in Argentina a few years ago? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/31/africa/zimbabwe-bitcoin-surge/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/31/africa/zimbabwe-bitcoin-su...
neuro_imager 9y ago
The people in Venezuela and Zimbabwe that are now using crypto as an opportunity not to starve now that their fiat currency is worth less than toilet paper disagree. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/venezuelans-bitcoin-boom-survival-speculation-51769668 http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/venezuelans-bitco... edit: Rather than downvote - could you please explain why you think crypto is not beneficial to the billions of people worldwide currently excluded from the financial system?
- cmurf 9y ago
  I don't know why people are downvoting, but what I'd like to know is how prevalent Bitcoin usage is in each country. Is it 10%? 50%? Who is it leaving behind? The article suggests it's not based on a scientific sample. I also wonder what the skew is in usage demographically and geographically. And then I'd like to see this contrasted with other hyperinflation instances were people abandon the local currency and start trading in either a neighbor's currency or even USD.
  - neuro_imager 9y ago
    Its probably impossible to quantify (mostly because those people using crypto are largely doing it at risk of imprisonment or death) - I'd imagine its a small number of tech savvy individuals.
  - ufo 9y ago
    I always downvote those Venezuela posts because they are invariably Bitcoin propaganda. The linked stories inevitably originate in a bitcoin news site and are backed by more wishful thinking than actual data.
    - neuro_imager 9y ago
      The article I linked to was from ABC news (as mainstream a news source as you could find). How is this propaganda? You're saying people in countries with hyperinflated currency have no use for crypto and don't use it? Can you back this up? Can you explain why there are significant premiums for Bitcoin when buying from exchanges from these countries? Or is this propaganda too? Of course there isn't data (except of course from the exchange rates). These people are breaking the law and at risk of death or imprisonment. What type of evidence would satisfy you?

watoc 9y ago

If South Korea bans exchanges in the country or at least restrict their operations that could have a major impact. It would still be easy for Koreans to trade one crypto for another but much more difficult to exchange crypto for USD or any other currency.

jacobr 9y ago

I don't think law makers ever expect a law to stop a criminal behaviour. Making it more difficult (remove apps, shut down web sites) is likely to have some impact though.

neuro_imager 9y ago
What is the crime here exactly? Breaking up the financial cartels? Regardless, I have no doubt that the government will do their best to use this as yet another opportunity to steal wealth from their citizens.
- jacobr 9y ago
  You could consider it a crime to help facilitate actions that can be a danger to the society and individuals, like others have explained elsewhere in comments. This would be similar to unregulated lotteries, ponzi schemes, smoking bans, etc. I definitely don't agree about criminalisation of cryptocurrencies (which also didn't happen), but there are valid points that are not only about stealing wealth.