3 ms·

Well, actually worst would be that as many as 25% of those living in encampments are extremely mentally ill and unable to even find or stay in low cost housing.

by kurthr 9y ago

Well, actually worst would be that as many as 25% of those living in encampments are extremely mentally ill and unable to even find or stay in low cost housing. Another 25% might be involved in illegal behavior that wouldn't be allowed in and SRO (prostitution, drugs, violence, bike theft). Another 25% might be opposed the the idea of living with constraints of an SRO (when you can go in/out, how much room you have, who you have to live with). Then it's only the 25% (families, elderly, kids, disabled, sick, poor) living in an encampment because they don't have a vehicle that would move into low cost housing. That's an improvement, but it's nothing like a solution.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
I have had a college class on Homelessness and Public Policy. I did an internship in a homeless shelter. Later, I spent time on the street myself, including six months in downtown San Diego attending homeless services. I consider myself to be more knowledgeable than average on the subject. You would need to provide a lot of data to substantiate this claim to have me take it seriously. I don't believe that is remotely realistic.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  I lived on the streets for a time. I still talk to some of my friends, who are homeless still. There's too many "reasons" to even try to count. I know a mother and her 17 year old child who was kicked out of the high barrier shelter because of a fight/disagreement. The high barrier shelter ejects quite a lot of people. I knew some homeless who did have jobs, but they were 2nd and 3rd shift. High barrier shelter closes doors at 6pm. So shelter is only for homeless who work 9-5, I guess? After our low barrier shelter was dismantled, quite a few alcoholics and drug users were summarily thrown in the street. Alcohol and drugs at least makes you forget the horribleness of it all, for a time. Is it a solution? You damn straight it is, for right now. Not like you have strong prospects. I knew others who had significant mental health problems. What were they? No clue. I'm no doc. But some seemed to be from too much drugs, others from existing conditions. Some seemed to be from PTSD cause they were soldiers. It's a cornucopia of why's for mental health. Some fell through the cracks. They fell on hard times and had one too many shit events happen. Car repo'd or evicted, and no personal social net (friends). They'd hop out if they knew how. We recently housed a friend who had this issue, so he wouldnt come crashing down. Some do like it homeless. They've lived it long enough that its now what they want. Nobody tells them to do this, or that, or when. They just live a meager existence. Not many of these, but I ran across a 3-4 of them. But overall, I'd say that most I ran across would highly love to have a place of their own, even if it was small. The only exceptions to that would have been the ones severely mentally ill and the ones who want to be homeless. And I'd argue about the severely mentally ill - they just seemed to be, and not be. They were surreal. Ideally, they should be housed by the state in wards. (Yeah, when you wander in a grocery store and pick up something cause its food and they were hungry, logic and stealing just goes out the window.)
  - kurthr 9y ago
    Thanks for your perspective... I set up a straw man in my response... worst case. Your description is not that different from what I observed when a friend of mine tried to stay in shelters (in SCRUZ). Because he was over 65 and capable managing his affairs (checking with housing/shelter services every day) he had a real advantage in finding help. It still took more than a year to find stable subsidized housing at a price he could afford and he went through a lot of uuncomfortable/insane situations on the way, but he would never leave his city. His friends tried to help (stay in doors for periods, keep a cell phone, store his stuff), but he had independence and pride so he wasn't looking for us to support him. I visited him every week or so when he when moved up from the shelter to temp housing for a little over a year. He lived with moderately crazy people, apologetic (but incurable) petty hoarder/thieves, along with prostitutes and small time drug dealer/users who could hide it and get along with their neighbors... some were kicked out of temp housing (shared trailer) or went into the hospital. Curfew was very strict! Those were the lucky folks. They either had it together enough or had family/friends to take care of them, and they also had some condition (kids, medical,age) that gave them a step ahead... if he had been 2-3 years younger, I don't know what would have happened (no chance to get a regular temp or permanent bed). Still, the shared conditions he lived in were nuts. You could barely sleep for the noises (overweight diabetics in a bunk bed that have to pee every couple of hours, vets screaming in the night...), nothing was safe from theft, and there was constant drama and argument with occasional mild scuffles. This was the NICE place, the shelters were much worse and you didn't know where/if you would sleep any night. Eventually, after 18mo on the waiting list, he got a tiny subsidized efficiency for $600+/mo. If he ever loses it, he cant get back in line so paying for it is his highest priority (even food). I'd guess market rate for the room is at least 2x. He's lucky!
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      I think your firsthand experience is coloring your interpretation of my remarks here such that we are simply not on the same page. I am currently in an SRO. It is not part of the shelter system. It is just low cost market based housing. There is no curfew. The rooms are adequately soundproofed that I am not kept awake by other people going to the bathroom in the night. When I am in my room, I mostly don't hear what other people are doing. When I walk to the bathroom, I can hear TVs and other things all night long. But it does not keep me up at night because I can't hear this stuff when I am in my room. I only hear it when I am out in the hallway. It has to be quiet from 10pm to 8am. Of course, there are other rules as well, but it is nothing at all like what you describe. I never spent time in the shelter system. It absolutely has serious problems, which is why I am advocating for other approaches to the issue. Sharing living space with strangers is always challenging. People in college dorms or who have roommates routinely complain about the problems involved or seek help on discussion boards for how to more effectively cope. But in most cases it is not the nightmarish scenario you describe.
StillBored 9y ago
My college dorm was basically a SRO. So the "constraints" bit seems a little far fetched to me. Maybe that is because the individual rooms were still isolated by cinder block walls, but outside of what I would call "Family strife" it was a pretty good living arrangement. A few people sharing a common living room, kitchen and a couple bathrooms. Everyone had their own (~150SQ if I were guessing) bedroom. Which is enough space for a bed, closet, desk, etc. Get tired of the apartment mates fighting over who left something in the fridge, just go in your room close the door and put on some headphones. Instant privacy/peace/safety. Probably more than most people enjoy in normal housing given the thin walls, shared bedrooms, etc. Plus, being a fairly large set of apartment buildings meant that a couple maids to clean the bathrooms, provide TP, and vacuum the common areas significantly reduces domestic strife over most shared living conditions. That is something I just don't get about homeless shelters and all the restrictions they put in place. Frankly if I were homeless I would have a tendency to live under a bridge, in a tent, whatever long before I put up with the stress of not knowing if I was going to have a bed the next night, or being woken at 6AM and kicked out.
jpindar 9y ago
What do you mean by SRO? The ones we have here in NH are merely rooms for rent - just like apartments except they don't have a private kitchen or bath, and I believe the rent is collected weekly and without a long term lease.

by kurthr 9y ago

DoreenMichele 9y ago

I have had a college class on Homelessness and Public Policy. I did an internship in a homeless shelter. Later, I spent time on the street myself, including six months in downtown San Diego attending homeless services. I consider myself to be more knowledgeable than average on the subject. You would need to provide a lot of data to substantiate this claim to have me take it seriously. I don't believe that is remotely realistic.

crankylinuxuser 9y ago
I lived on the streets for a time. I still talk to some of my friends, who are homeless still. There's too many "reasons" to even try to count. I know a mother and her 17 year old child who was kicked out of the high barrier shelter because of a fight/disagreement. The high barrier shelter ejects quite a lot of people. I knew some homeless who did have jobs, but they were 2nd and 3rd shift. High barrier shelter closes doors at 6pm. So shelter is only for homeless who work 9-5, I guess? After our low barrier shelter was dismantled, quite a few alcoholics and drug users were summarily thrown in the street. Alcohol and drugs at least makes you forget the horribleness of it all, for a time. Is it a solution? You damn straight it is, for right now. Not like you have strong prospects. I knew others who had significant mental health problems. What were they? No clue. I'm no doc. But some seemed to be from too much drugs, others from existing conditions. Some seemed to be from PTSD cause they were soldiers. It's a cornucopia of why's for mental health. Some fell through the cracks. They fell on hard times and had one too many shit events happen. Car repo'd or evicted, and no personal social net (friends). They'd hop out if they knew how. We recently housed a friend who had this issue, so he wouldnt come crashing down. Some do like it homeless. They've lived it long enough that its now what they want. Nobody tells them to do this, or that, or when. They just live a meager existence. Not many of these, but I ran across a 3-4 of them. But overall, I'd say that most I ran across would highly love to have a place of their own, even if it was small. The only exceptions to that would have been the ones severely mentally ill and the ones who want to be homeless. And I'd argue about the severely mentally ill - they just seemed to be, and not be. They were surreal. Ideally, they should be housed by the state in wards. (Yeah, when you wander in a grocery store and pick up something cause its food and they were hungry, logic and stealing just goes out the window.)
- kurthr 9y ago
  Thanks for your perspective... I set up a straw man in my response... worst case. Your description is not that different from what I observed when a friend of mine tried to stay in shelters (in SCRUZ). Because he was over 65 and capable managing his affairs (checking with housing/shelter services every day) he had a real advantage in finding help. It still took more than a year to find stable subsidized housing at a price he could afford and he went through a lot of uuncomfortable/insane situations on the way, but he would never leave his city. His friends tried to help (stay in doors for periods, keep a cell phone, store his stuff), but he had independence and pride so he wasn't looking for us to support him. I visited him every week or so when he when moved up from the shelter to temp housing for a little over a year. He lived with moderately crazy people, apologetic (but incurable) petty hoarder/thieves, along with prostitutes and small time drug dealer/users who could hide it and get along with their neighbors... some were kicked out of temp housing (shared trailer) or went into the hospital. Curfew was very strict! Those were the lucky folks. They either had it together enough or had family/friends to take care of them, and they also had some condition (kids, medical,age) that gave them a step ahead... if he had been 2-3 years younger, I don't know what would have happened (no chance to get a regular temp or permanent bed). Still, the shared conditions he lived in were nuts. You could barely sleep for the noises (overweight diabetics in a bunk bed that have to pee every couple of hours, vets screaming in the night...), nothing was safe from theft, and there was constant drama and argument with occasional mild scuffles. This was the NICE place, the shelters were much worse and you didn't know where/if you would sleep any night. Eventually, after 18mo on the waiting list, he got a tiny subsidized efficiency for $600+/mo. If he ever loses it, he cant get back in line so paying for it is his highest priority (even food). I'd guess market rate for the room is at least 2x. He's lucky!
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I think your firsthand experience is coloring your interpretation of my remarks here such that we are simply not on the same page. I am currently in an SRO. It is not part of the shelter system. It is just low cost market based housing. There is no curfew. The rooms are adequately soundproofed that I am not kept awake by other people going to the bathroom in the night. When I am in my room, I mostly don't hear what other people are doing. When I walk to the bathroom, I can hear TVs and other things all night long. But it does not keep me up at night because I can't hear this stuff when I am in my room. I only hear it when I am out in the hallway. It has to be quiet from 10pm to 8am. Of course, there are other rules as well, but it is nothing at all like what you describe. I never spent time in the shelter system. It absolutely has serious problems, which is why I am advocating for other approaches to the issue. Sharing living space with strangers is always challenging. People in college dorms or who have roommates routinely complain about the problems involved or seek help on discussion boards for how to more effectively cope. But in most cases it is not the nightmarish scenario you describe.

StillBored 9y ago

My college dorm was basically a SRO. So the "constraints" bit seems a little far fetched to me. Maybe that is because the individual rooms were still isolated by cinder block walls, but outside of what I would call "Family strife" it was a pretty good living arrangement. A few people sharing a common living room, kitchen and a couple bathrooms. Everyone had their own (~150SQ if I were guessing) bedroom. Which is enough space for a bed, closet, desk, etc. Get tired of the apartment mates fighting over who left something in the fridge, just go in your room close the door and put on some headphones. Instant privacy/peace/safety. Probably more than most people enjoy in normal housing given the thin walls, shared bedrooms, etc. Plus, being a fairly large set of apartment buildings meant that a couple maids to clean the bathrooms, provide TP, and vacuum the common areas significantly reduces domestic strife over most shared living conditions. That is something I just don't get about homeless shelters and all the restrictions they put in place. Frankly if I were homeless I would have a tendency to live under a bridge, in a tent, whatever long before I put up with the stress of not knowing if I was going to have a bed the next night, or being woken at 6AM and kicked out.

jpindar 9y ago

What do you mean by SRO? The ones we have here in NH are merely rooms for rent - just like apartments except they don't have a private kitchen or bath, and I believe the rent is collected weekly and without a long term lease.