6 ms·

Can you back up this outlandish claim?

Spooky23 9y ago
It’s not outlandish. The government shifted from institutional commitment to voluntary community based care for the mentally ill and chronically addicted in the early 1980s. For a variety of reasons, just providing apartments doesn’t work. Most homeless people require substantial and ongoing assistance to get and remain independent. Our social welfare system is a patchwork that varies from state to state and counties within a state. Until that changes, you’ll see no progress, as people will migrate to get better benefits and services, which makes delivery of those services impossible.
- mncharity 9y ago
  > people will migrate to get better benefits and services, which makes delivery of those services impossible A couple of decades ago, a large town in New Hampshire obtained federal funds to build low-cost housing. But the housing brought in people who used more local services. Services whose cost was only partially defrayed by the state and federal governments. So the town then bought up low-cost housing, and tore it down.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    About 10-15% of the US population is below the Federal poverty line in any given year, but only 2% are chronically poor. This is typically defined as below the Federal poverty line at least 5 years out of 10. My thinking is we need enough low cost housing for 2% of the population. This would help keep the chronically poor -- those with intractable personal problems -- off the street. I am currently thinking a lot about how to address the issue effectively. I am not for growing homeless services or similar programs. My latest project is aimed at making flexible earned income a viable option, for both homeless people and people with the kinds of barriers to employment that can lead to homelessness: http://independentdigitalworkers.blogspot.com http://independentdigitalworkers.blogspot.com It isn't charity. It is part of how I got myself off the street.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      What about assisted living type arrangements for the chronically poor or mentally ill? I have family members who work in social welfare and housing. The most frustrating and emotionally draining cases for them are when folks don’t have the support network that they need. This was especially true for veterans (including dishonorably discharged), battered women, the mentally ill and substance abusers. Perhaps having someone there to help who is trusted makes a difference. Personally, I find it bizarre when in a thread or other discussion on this topic, compassion is viewed as being permissive to folks living on the streets or in public parks. The US doesn’t need to bring back tenements or have the city park be a camp for the indigent. We’re in a golden age of plenty — with a good plan and a few less aircraft carriers this problem could be a lot better.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        We are in a golden age of plenty where 99 percent of people are losing ground and 1 percent are getting richer. There is certainly a place for supportive services in resolving this, but my personal goal is to restore agency, autonomy and self sufficiency to low income people as much as possible. Given some of your other remarks here, I think it is not unjustified in assuming that you simply see poor people as folks who need to be stripped of rights and bossed around by someone else. This is not my idea if supportive services. I am very leery of people proposing so called supportive services that will actually just be some new means to deny people agency. Charity does not give anyone a middle class life. You get that by working for it. I have special needs and so do my sons. We aren't stupid, lazy or incompetent. We do need maneuvering room to do things as we see fit. That is the very first thing most programs strip you of. Then we wonder why people cannot get out if their mess. I don't expect everyone to be able to solve their problems if given the opportunity. But I do think we currently actively deny poor people opportunities to solve their own problems and then blame them for failing. I would like to see a reduction in the amount that society does to actively undermine poor people.
        Spooky23 9y ago
        I can totally see part of your perspective. Part of what I do as a thought experiment or learning exercise in forums like this is explore and look for meaning in complex issues. I tend to take a hard line on overall risk to the public. I don't live in a place where dropping a cigarette can immolate square miles of land. The thought is terrifying to me. Perhaps that comes off too strong.
prewett 9y ago
Well, you could google it and find out. Searching for "homeless people want to be homeless" gave me a bunch of good articles. NPR had people who were or had been homeless call in and say why they preferred the streets over shelters [1]. The summary is: - many shelters are crowded, noisy, and unsafe - some shelters make you stand in line at 4:30pm, which makes getting a job difficult, since many require you to stay past that time. - you have an undiagnosed mental illness - you are a military veteran with PTSD and enclosed spaces make you fearful - you need a dog for protection and many shelters don't take animals - some people feel judged at religious shelters - many shelters require you to not be drunk or high, but many homeless are addicts. I helped out a place that housed people just out of prison (private room plus meals for $50/month) plus food pantry and clothes, and the woman who ran it said that a lot of the homeless men that they interacted with were homeless because they were running away from their responsibilities. So those people would not want to go to a shelter because people would tell them what to do, and the whole point of being homeless was to get out of people/life telling you what to do. [1] https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-choose-the-streets-over-shelters https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-c...
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Preferring the streets to the shelter system is not the same as desiring homelessness. Most homeless shelters are pretty awful. They do not constitute humane treatment. I never stayed in one. I started the intake process at least once when a big snow storm was incoming. I never completed it. I asked for a shower and change of clothes, they gave it to me and then I my sons took the advice of a Native American man who had given us a ride and had talked about where to camp to stay warm in terms of local terrain. He was right. We were toasty warm all night and had to open the windows to not overheat. It was a shock anytime we got out the tent to pee in the snow. It was hard to believe the temperature difference.

It’s not outlandish. The government shifted from institutional commitment to voluntary community based care for the mentally ill and chronically addicted in the early 1980s. For a variety of reasons, just providing apartments doesn’t work. Most homeless people require substantial and ongoing assistance to get and remain independent. Our social welfare system is a patchwork that varies from state to state and counties within a state. Until that changes, you’ll see no progress, as people will migrate to get better benefits and services, which makes delivery of those services impossible.

mncharity 9y ago
> people will migrate to get better benefits and services, which makes delivery of those services impossible A couple of decades ago, a large town in New Hampshire obtained federal funds to build low-cost housing. But the housing brought in people who used more local services. Services whose cost was only partially defrayed by the state and federal governments. So the town then bought up low-cost housing, and tore it down.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  About 10-15% of the US population is below the Federal poverty line in any given year, but only 2% are chronically poor. This is typically defined as below the Federal poverty line at least 5 years out of 10. My thinking is we need enough low cost housing for 2% of the population. This would help keep the chronically poor -- those with intractable personal problems -- off the street. I am currently thinking a lot about how to address the issue effectively. I am not for growing homeless services or similar programs. My latest project is aimed at making flexible earned income a viable option, for both homeless people and people with the kinds of barriers to employment that can lead to homelessness: http://independentdigitalworkers.blogspot.com http://independentdigitalworkers.blogspot.com It isn't charity. It is part of how I got myself off the street.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    What about assisted living type arrangements for the chronically poor or mentally ill? I have family members who work in social welfare and housing. The most frustrating and emotionally draining cases for them are when folks don’t have the support network that they need. This was especially true for veterans (including dishonorably discharged), battered women, the mentally ill and substance abusers. Perhaps having someone there to help who is trusted makes a difference. Personally, I find it bizarre when in a thread or other discussion on this topic, compassion is viewed as being permissive to folks living on the streets or in public parks. The US doesn’t need to bring back tenements or have the city park be a camp for the indigent. We’re in a golden age of plenty — with a good plan and a few less aircraft carriers this problem could be a lot better.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      We are in a golden age of plenty where 99 percent of people are losing ground and 1 percent are getting richer. There is certainly a place for supportive services in resolving this, but my personal goal is to restore agency, autonomy and self sufficiency to low income people as much as possible. Given some of your other remarks here, I think it is not unjustified in assuming that you simply see poor people as folks who need to be stripped of rights and bossed around by someone else. This is not my idea if supportive services. I am very leery of people proposing so called supportive services that will actually just be some new means to deny people agency. Charity does not give anyone a middle class life. You get that by working for it. I have special needs and so do my sons. We aren't stupid, lazy or incompetent. We do need maneuvering room to do things as we see fit. That is the very first thing most programs strip you of. Then we wonder why people cannot get out if their mess. I don't expect everyone to be able to solve their problems if given the opportunity. But I do think we currently actively deny poor people opportunities to solve their own problems and then blame them for failing. I would like to see a reduction in the amount that society does to actively undermine poor people.
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        I can totally see part of your perspective. Part of what I do as a thought experiment or learning exercise in forums like this is explore and look for meaning in complex issues. I tend to take a hard line on overall risk to the public. I don't live in a place where dropping a cigarette can immolate square miles of land. The thought is terrifying to me. Perhaps that comes off too strong.

prewett 9y ago

Well, you could google it and find out. Searching for "homeless people want to be homeless" gave me a bunch of good articles. NPR had people who were or had been homeless call in and say why they preferred the streets over shelters [1]. The summary is: - many shelters are crowded, noisy, and unsafe - some shelters make you stand in line at 4:30pm, which makes getting a job difficult, since many require you to stay past that time. - you have an undiagnosed mental illness - you are a military veteran with PTSD and enclosed spaces make you fearful - you need a dog for protection and many shelters don't take animals - some people feel judged at religious shelters - many shelters require you to not be drunk or high, but many homeless are addicts. I helped out a place that housed people just out of prison (private room plus meals for $50/month) plus food pantry and clothes, and the woman who ran it said that a lot of the homeless men that they interacted with were homeless because they were running away from their responsibilities. So those people would not want to go to a shelter because people would tell them what to do, and the whole point of being homeless was to get out of people/life telling you what to do. [1] https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-choose-the-streets-over-shelters https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-c...

DoreenMichele 9y ago
Preferring the streets to the shelter system is not the same as desiring homelessness. Most homeless shelters are pretty awful. They do not constitute humane treatment. I never stayed in one. I started the intake process at least once when a big snow storm was incoming. I never completed it. I asked for a shower and change of clothes, they gave it to me and then I my sons took the advice of a Native American man who had given us a ride and had talked about where to camp to stay warm in terms of local terrain. He was right. We were toasty warm all night and had to open the windows to not overheat. It was a shock anytime we got out the tent to pee in the snow. It was hard to believe the temperature difference.