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Con net neutrality argument: The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. For 25 years the internet blossomed without any net neutrality rules in pl

Con net neutrality argument: The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. For 25 years the internet blossomed without any net neutrality rules in place. Yet somehow we're supposed to believe that if this rule is repealed, Verizon will force me to pay extra for Netflix or will prevent me accessing websites they don't want me to see. There were instances in the past of ISPs behaving badly but they were resolved on an individual basis. If you're worried about freedom of speech on the net, edge providers such as Google, Facebook and Twitter are for more of a threat to free speech than ISPs. A longer article that details some of this: https://stratechery.com/2017/pro-neutrality-anti-title-ii/ https://stratechery.com/2017/pro-neutrality-anti-title-ii/

fossuser 9y ago
This isn't really true though. NY AG Schneiderman had a good response to this in the earlier AMA (which I've pasted below). "As a preliminary matter, it’s important to recognize that net neutrality principles and protections in different forms have actually been around since 2005 and even earlier. So the flourishing of the internet and everything relying on it during that time occurred under the protections. A few years ago, however, the courts struck down one form of net neutrality protections (those that had relied on Title I of the Communications Act), so then in 2015 the FCC put net neutrality protections back in place under Title II instead (they also expanded the earlier protections, e.g., to include protections against abuses related to interconnection, which had not been the subject of net neutrality protections before 2015). Now, in 2017, the FCC under Chairman Ajit Pai is proposing to repeal net neutrality protections altogether (and the courts’ earlier decisions effectively foreclose a return to net neutrality protections under Title I). So that would be entirely new territory for the internet. Why do we think that’s bad? Well, as I explained in my own public comment in the current proceeding (https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10717583023587/FINAL%20RIF%20Co... https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10717583023587/FINAL%20RIF%20Co...), we’ve seen how companies behave in the absence of net neutrality protections, specifically in the area of interconnection before it was regulated in 2015, and their unregulated conduct harmed consumers. In essence, they made a deliberate business decision to let the quality of internet access degrade, knowing that it hurt consumers, to try to squeeze revenue out of edge providers like Netflix and backbone providers like Cogent and Level 3. Plus, we know that many consumers have few ISPs to choose from, so competition isn’t as effective a check as in other markets. So I believe strong net neutrality regulations are needed to avoid harms to consumers." The AMA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15853374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15853374
- bo1024 9y ago
  Thank you for the refutation to this sadly-commmon misconception that NN only dates back to 2015. Another sad misconception is that NN was proposed by the Obama administration.
MAGZine 9y ago
"resolved on an individual basis" like Netflix paying ISPs to not throttle their traffic? Part of the problem is that telecos are too large. Over the last 25 years we've seen a consolidation of companies into a few large telecoms that absolutely dominate the market. Most customers don't have choice like they did in the dial up days. Deep packet inspection technology means ISPs can effectively filter traffic. And, as they merge with entertainment giants, they have their own media business interests to protect and foster. I'm just as sad an anyone to see the internet becoming a place of rules and laws but the internet is a different place than it was 25 or even 10 years ago (when the net neutrality discussion began)
ploxiln 9y ago
Con democracy argument: the first democracy is at most 2500 years old. For hundreds of thousands of years the human race blossomed without democracy. The reason the internet was pretty good without any rules for the first 20 years is because big commercial interests didn't understand it until relatively recently, they didn't see the opportunities to exploit the exclusive access to the subscriber's home. They understand it now. Only in the past 10 years or so have we come to need reasonably-priced and stable internet almost as much as we need electricity or water.
- refurb 9y ago
  The reason the internet was pretty good without any rules for the first 20 years is because big commercial interests didn't understand it...only in the past 10 years... You realize your analysis completely ignore the 2001 tech bubble? Big corporations have known and invested heavily in the internet for a lot longer than the last 10 years (since 2007?!?)
  - ploxiln 9y ago
    They were interested/excited by it, but didn't fully get it. The internet was just then replacing walled gardens like aol and prodigy. Most people used dial-up for many years, and that sort of piggy-backed on the common-carrier status of the landline phone companies. So there was plenty of competition there. Cable internet providers were new around that time, and competing with cheap and good-enough dial-up and roughly-equivalent DSL (which could deliver service from a third party, somewhat like dial-up, e.g. earthlink). So the idea of only having one fast-enough option for internet in your town was novel. Further, there were far fewer paid online services. So there wasn't an ecosystem to support partnership/promotions/schemes like today.
    - wtallis 9y ago
      And perhaps the biggest difference: internet connectivity in 2001 didn't pose a threat to the established cable TV revenue streams.
- 9y ago
shopkins 9y ago
Those instances were usually resolved, but other times ISPs continued misbehaving, and in fact when the FCC has sued, the courts have actually said that they could've won and prevented the bad behavior under Title II [0] Also, the argument that "the internet worked fine before" is misleading, because technically the FCC worked under the same wireline "neutrality" rules and norms applied to AT&T back in the 70s. A little more history here: [1] [0] https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/EA10373FA9C20DEA85257807005BD63F/$file/08-1291-1238302.pdf https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/EA10373F... [1] https://www.wired.com/story/how-the-fccs-net-neutrality-plan-breaks-with-50-years-of-history/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-the-fccs-net-neutrality-plan...
dsp1234 9y ago
The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. This is patently incorrect. The Open Internet Order of 2010 established a set of rules based around 3 concepts[0]: 1.) Transparency. Fixed and mobile broadband providers must disclose the network management practices, performance characteristics, and terms and conditions of their broadband services 2.) No blocking. Fixed broadband providers may not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices; mobile broadband providers may not block lawful websites, or block applications that compete with their voice or video telephony services. 3.) No unreasonable discrimination. Fixed broadband providers may not unreasonably discriminate in transmitting lawful network traffic. From 2010 until 2014, that was Net Neutrality. In 2014, in Verizon vs. the FCC[1], the appeals court struck down the No blocking and No unreasonable discrimination sections of the Open Internet Order. The court at the time noted that as long as ISPs were considered under Title I, those sections could not apply to them. However, the court also noted that, in general, the FCC did have the power to enforce the Open Internet Order using Title II, and that the FCC had the ability to reclassify the ISPs under Title II. Thus in 2015, the FCC reclassified broadband providers under Title II, thus making the No blocking and No unreasonable discrimination sections apply to them once again. The history goes: 2010-2014: Transparency, No blocking, No unreasonable discrimination 2014-2015: Transparency, blocking ok, unreasonable discrimination ok 2015-now: Transparency, No blocking, No unreasonable discrimination What the FCC wants to do now is to repeal the action taken to classify broadband providers under Title II, and move them back to Title I. This would again eliminate the ability of the FCC to enforce the Open Internet Order's No Blocking and No Unreasonable Discrimination sections. If you believe that Net Neutrality is something that the FCC made up in 2015 and that for 25 years the internet blossomed without net neutrality rules in place, then you are believing an obvious, and easily researched lie. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010 [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v._FCC_(2014) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v....
lurr 9y ago
> The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. No, after a court ruling the need for stronger net neutrality laws became evident and they put the regulations in place because of that.
s73ver_ 9y ago
That argument completely ignores why the rules were put into place when they were. Namely, because the ISPs started to act in a non-neutral manner.
emmelaich 9y ago
I'm not too bothered about NN because: 1. I'm not in the USA :-) 2. Competition will result in the more rapid expansion of things like Google Fi. 3. I wouldn't mind paying less if I don't use Netflix. 4. I'm wary of regulation. The FCC was founded to ensure radio waves don't conflict. Now it regulates speech.
- saagarjha 9y ago
  > I'm not in the USA :-) > Competition will result in the more rapid expansion of things like Google Fi. You may not be aware of this, but in the US there is almost no competition whatsoever for ISPs. Most people are lucky to have two choices for internet, and they tend to keep their prices relatively similar. > I wouldn't mind paying less if I don't use Netflix. How about paying less if you use less data? > Now it regulates speech. As opposed to, say, the ISPs doing it.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The FCC was founded to ensure radio waves don't conflict. No, that was the FRC. The FCC regulated more stuff from the start, as per the Communications Act of 1934.

fossuser 9y ago

This isn't really true though. NY AG Schneiderman had a good response to this in the earlier AMA (which I've pasted below). "As a preliminary matter, it’s important to recognize that net neutrality principles and protections in different forms have actually been around since 2005 and even earlier. So the flourishing of the internet and everything relying on it during that time occurred under the protections. A few years ago, however, the courts struck down one form of net neutrality protections (those that had relied on Title I of the Communications Act), so then in 2015 the FCC put net neutrality protections back in place under Title II instead (they also expanded the earlier protections, e.g., to include protections against abuses related to interconnection, which had not been the subject of net neutrality protections before 2015). Now, in 2017, the FCC under Chairman Ajit Pai is proposing to repeal net neutrality protections altogether (and the courts’ earlier decisions effectively foreclose a return to net neutrality protections under Title I). So that would be entirely new territory for the internet. Why do we think that’s bad? Well, as I explained in my own public comment in the current proceeding (https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10717583023587/FINAL%20RIF%20Co... https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10717583023587/FINAL%20RIF%20Co...), we’ve seen how companies behave in the absence of net neutrality protections, specifically in the area of interconnection before it was regulated in 2015, and their unregulated conduct harmed consumers. In essence, they made a deliberate business decision to let the quality of internet access degrade, knowing that it hurt consumers, to try to squeeze revenue out of edge providers like Netflix and backbone providers like Cogent and Level 3. Plus, we know that many consumers have few ISPs to choose from, so competition isn’t as effective a check as in other markets. So I believe strong net neutrality regulations are needed to avoid harms to consumers." The AMA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15853374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15853374

bo1024 9y ago
Thank you for the refutation to this sadly-commmon misconception that NN only dates back to 2015. Another sad misconception is that NN was proposed by the Obama administration.

MAGZine 9y ago

"resolved on an individual basis" like Netflix paying ISPs to not throttle their traffic? Part of the problem is that telecos are too large. Over the last 25 years we've seen a consolidation of companies into a few large telecoms that absolutely dominate the market. Most customers don't have choice like they did in the dial up days. Deep packet inspection technology means ISPs can effectively filter traffic. And, as they merge with entertainment giants, they have their own media business interests to protect and foster. I'm just as sad an anyone to see the internet becoming a place of rules and laws but the internet is a different place than it was 25 or even 10 years ago (when the net neutrality discussion began)

ploxiln 9y ago

Con democracy argument: the first democracy is at most 2500 years old. For hundreds of thousands of years the human race blossomed without democracy. The reason the internet was pretty good without any rules for the first 20 years is because big commercial interests didn't understand it until relatively recently, they didn't see the opportunities to exploit the exclusive access to the subscriber's home. They understand it now. Only in the past 10 years or so have we come to need reasonably-priced and stable internet almost as much as we need electricity or water.

refurb 9y ago
The reason the internet was pretty good without any rules for the first 20 years is because big commercial interests didn't understand it...only in the past 10 years... You realize your analysis completely ignore the 2001 tech bubble? Big corporations have known and invested heavily in the internet for a lot longer than the last 10 years (since 2007?!?)
- ploxiln 9y ago
  They were interested/excited by it, but didn't fully get it. The internet was just then replacing walled gardens like aol and prodigy. Most people used dial-up for many years, and that sort of piggy-backed on the common-carrier status of the landline phone companies. So there was plenty of competition there. Cable internet providers were new around that time, and competing with cheap and good-enough dial-up and roughly-equivalent DSL (which could deliver service from a third party, somewhat like dial-up, e.g. earthlink). So the idea of only having one fast-enough option for internet in your town was novel. Further, there were far fewer paid online services. So there wasn't an ecosystem to support partnership/promotions/schemes like today.
  - wtallis 9y ago
    And perhaps the biggest difference: internet connectivity in 2001 didn't pose a threat to the established cable TV revenue streams.
9y ago

shopkins 9y ago

Those instances were usually resolved, but other times ISPs continued misbehaving, and in fact when the FCC has sued, the courts have actually said that they could've won and prevented the bad behavior under Title II [0] Also, the argument that "the internet worked fine before" is misleading, because technically the FCC worked under the same wireline "neutrality" rules and norms applied to AT&T back in the 70s. A little more history here: [1] [0] https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/EA10373FA9C20DEA85257807005BD63F/$file/08-1291-1238302.pdf https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/EA10373F... [1] https://www.wired.com/story/how-the-fccs-net-neutrality-plan-breaks-with-50-years-of-history/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-the-fccs-net-neutrality-plan...

dsp1234 9y ago

The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. This is patently incorrect. The Open Internet Order of 2010 established a set of rules based around 3 concepts[0]: 1.) Transparency. Fixed and mobile broadband providers must disclose the network management practices, performance characteristics, and terms and conditions of their broadband services 2.) No blocking. Fixed broadband providers may not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices; mobile broadband providers may not block lawful websites, or block applications that compete with their voice or video telephony services. 3.) No unreasonable discrimination. Fixed broadband providers may not unreasonably discriminate in transmitting lawful network traffic. From 2010 until 2014, that was Net Neutrality. In 2014, in Verizon vs. the FCC[1], the appeals court struck down the No blocking and No unreasonable discrimination sections of the Open Internet Order. The court at the time noted that as long as ISPs were considered under Title I, those sections could not apply to them. However, the court also noted that, in general, the FCC did have the power to enforce the Open Internet Order using Title II, and that the FCC had the ability to reclassify the ISPs under Title II. Thus in 2015, the FCC reclassified broadband providers under Title II, thus making the No blocking and No unreasonable discrimination sections apply to them once again. The history goes: 2010-2014: Transparency, No blocking, No unreasonable discrimination 2014-2015: Transparency, blocking ok, unreasonable discrimination ok 2015-now: Transparency, No blocking, No unreasonable discrimination What the FCC wants to do now is to repeal the action taken to classify broadband providers under Title II, and move them back to Title I. This would again eliminate the ability of the FCC to enforce the Open Internet Order's No Blocking and No Unreasonable Discrimination sections. If you believe that Net Neutrality is something that the FCC made up in 2015 and that for 25 years the internet blossomed without net neutrality rules in place, then you are believing an obvious, and easily researched lie. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010 [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v._FCC_(2014) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v....

lurr 9y ago

> The first net neutrality rules were implemented in 2015. No, after a court ruling the need for stronger net neutrality laws became evident and they put the regulations in place because of that.

s73ver_ 9y ago

That argument completely ignores why the rules were put into place when they were. Namely, because the ISPs started to act in a non-neutral manner.

emmelaich 9y ago

I'm not too bothered about NN because: 1. I'm not in the USA :-) 2. Competition will result in the more rapid expansion of things like Google Fi. 3. I wouldn't mind paying less if I don't use Netflix. 4. I'm wary of regulation. The FCC was founded to ensure radio waves don't conflict. Now it regulates speech.

saagarjha 9y ago
> I'm not in the USA :-) > Competition will result in the more rapid expansion of things like Google Fi. You may not be aware of this, but in the US there is almost no competition whatsoever for ISPs. Most people are lucky to have two choices for internet, and they tend to keep their prices relatively similar. > I wouldn't mind paying less if I don't use Netflix. How about paying less if you use less data? > Now it regulates speech. As opposed to, say, the ISPs doing it.
icebraining 9y ago
The FCC was founded to ensure radio waves don't conflict. No, that was the FRC. The FCC regulated more stuff from the start, as per the Communications Act of 1934.