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What makes fundamental physics an exception to your rule? How fundamental would a "model" need to be to no longer be a model? It seems to me that the explicit p

What makes fundamental physics an exception to your rule? How fundamental would a "model" need to be to no longer be a model? It seems to me that the explicit purpose of physics is to create ever more detailed models of what happens next at various degree of detail, but there's no "there" down there to ultimately declare as actual reality, just our empirical descriptions (models).

ThomPete 16y ago
Exactly. The problem arises not when we say one model is more useful or accurate (for our purpose) than another, but when we start to say that something is true. As if narratives however abstract (math for instance instead of words) are describing reality. They are not.
loup-vaillant 16y ago
EDIT: I actually agree with you. Maybe I shouldn't have made an exception of physics in the first place. That's because fundamental physics seeks to be the ultimate explanation for everything. (A bit like 42 :-) As far as I know, every other theories about our world are meant to be tractable models, instead of the real thing. Evolution theory is an example. Fluid mechanics is another. We could try to explain them in terms of string theory, but that would hardly help us in finding new fossils, or build a safe plane.
- ThomPete 16y ago
  That they seek it doesn't mean it's so. Kuhn and Popper for instance is in disagreement about what making a model more precise means. Seeking a model that is without doubt is simply fools gold if you ask me. It's assuming certainty where none really exist.
  - loup-vaillant 16y ago
    > That they seek it doesn't mean it's so. True. I got carried away. > Seeking a model that is without doubt is simply fools gold Seeking something doesn't mean we assume that we will find it. The fact that it's unattainable doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing. Like perfection.
    - ThomPete 16y ago
      It might just be a matter of semantics or taste, but what about just seeking better predictability. How is that leaving us worse of? Truth, objective, rational etc. is covered with all sorts of baggage.
      - loup-vaillant 16y ago
        > How is that leaving us worse of? It doesn't. I just haven't thought of this "third alternative".

ThomPete 16y ago

Exactly. The problem arises not when we say one model is more useful or accurate (for our purpose) than another, but when we start to say that something is true. As if narratives however abstract (math for instance instead of words) are describing reality. They are not.

loup-vaillant 16y ago

EDIT: I actually agree with you. Maybe I shouldn't have made an exception of physics in the first place. That's because fundamental physics seeks to be the ultimate explanation for everything. (A bit like 42 :-) As far as I know, every other theories about our world are meant to be tractable models, instead of the real thing. Evolution theory is an example. Fluid mechanics is another. We could try to explain them in terms of string theory, but that would hardly help us in finding new fossils, or build a safe plane.

ThomPete 16y ago
That they seek it doesn't mean it's so. Kuhn and Popper for instance is in disagreement about what making a model more precise means. Seeking a model that is without doubt is simply fools gold if you ask me. It's assuming certainty where none really exist.
- loup-vaillant 16y ago
  > That they seek it doesn't mean it's so. True. I got carried away. > Seeking a model that is without doubt is simply fools gold Seeking something doesn't mean we assume that we will find it. The fact that it's unattainable doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing. Like perfection.
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    It might just be a matter of semantics or taste, but what about just seeking better predictability. How is that leaving us worse of? Truth, objective, rational etc. is covered with all sorts of baggage.
    - loup-vaillant 16y ago
      > How is that leaving us worse of? It doesn't. I just haven't thought of this "third alternative".