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n the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US British Army Private £18,488 Lance Corporal £25,524, that's $24,633 and $34,007 respectively accor

by gaius 9y ago

n the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US British Army Private £18,488 Lance Corporal £25,524, that's $24,633 and $34,007 respectively according to Bing. US Army is $19,198 and $25,066 respectively. Obviously cost of living etc is different, but British soldiers are comparatively well paid. have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave This is true. The way we treat our veterans is appalling. Upon leaving the Army they are basically disowned and discarded by the government (both parties) and it is up to the charity sector. Even discrimination based on veteran or reserve status is perfectly legal here[1]. One charity I actively support is https://supportourparas.org https://supportourparas.org [1] One reason the AR has no hope of reaching its target of 30k trained reservists. The TA 20 years ago managed 70k!

robin_reala 9y ago
If I leave a company I’m basically discarded by that company. I worked for the U.K. government and I’ve got a reasonable pension and nothing else. Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job.
- gaius 9y ago
  Most jobs do not require you to undergo an institutionalising training process, nor to place yourself at risk of violent death, nor to move house or even country every couple of years, nor many other things.
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    But it’s your choice to undergo that. No-one in modern Britain is forced into military service.
    - gaius 9y ago
      Well, it was your choice to work for the UK gov, why should you be entitled to a gold-plated final salary pension? Because it's - supposedly - a reasonable expectation for the opportunity cost of taking a different kind of job than you would find working for a corporation. Nowadays of course public sector salaries outstrip the private sector, so probably the pension should be scrapped.
      - shubb 9y ago
        Public sector jobs pay maybe better than market in rural and economically dead areas of the UK. In the South East, they generally pay worse. If you don't believe me, go find your job in the civil service website and remember there is no salary negotiation. Senior civil servants make good bank though and have very nice revolving door opportunities, so it's a good career option financially if you expect to get there (i.e. elite education and very good at debates). The final salary pensions you mention have mostly been closed to new entrants - now you just buy into a fund and cash it for an annuity like anywhere else, with like 3-5% employer matched contributions. Existing staff often still have them but can get pushed off them during reorgs so I figure they will be completely gone in about 10 years.
  - yaseer 9y ago
    A suitable analogy might be with the police. Both are employed by the state and face risks of daily violence in their jobs. Veterans are hero-worshipped by comparison. I actually feel the police deserve more respect. (At least the British police - can't say I have the same affection for the American police, at least based on the news reports over here...).
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  Do you literally think being a soldier is just a job, with no differences to normal civilian employment?
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    I think that it’s a job that the soldier chooses to do, and were I to do that and suffer injuries (mental or physical) I’d expect to be treated by the NHS in the same way that I’d expect an industrial accident to be treated, or a first respinder’s PTSD to be treated. It shouldn’t be held apart, because holding apart leads to hero worship, which leads to the wrong kind of nationalism. It’s insidious.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      I don't agree with any kind of hero worship or 'thank you for your service' either! It makes me cringe. But it really doesn't make any sense to argue that 'it's just a job'. That's simply technically wrong. A soldier is subject to a whole additional legal system to civilians. They can go to prison if they don't do the work they're told to do. They can go to prison if they leave before their contract is us. They can be told to do something that they know will get them killed. None of these things are anything like any other job.
      - robin_reala 9y ago
        That’s reasonable, but maybe the answer is to dismantle the additional legal framework about that industry? I’ve not seen any desire to do so, but that doesn’t mean the conversation isn’t worth having.
    - gaius 9y ago
      I’d expect to be treated by the NHS in the same way Except that a soldier can't even expect that (yes RAF I know but still) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11892935/RAF-sergeant-in-uniform-moved-by-hospital-to-avoid-offending-other-patients.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11892935/RAF-...
    - 9y ago
- Silhouette 9y ago
  Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job. No, it isn't. People who serve in the armed forces and their families have a different lifestyle to almost anyone else. They make many sacrifices and lack many protections at work that others enjoy, for obvious reasons. They are trained in ways that profoundly affect them psychologically, because they may be forced to see or do things that in an ideal world no-one should ever have to see or do, and neither their mindset nor their experiences of those awful things just magically change back to normal when they're discharged. While serving in the forces may develop some admirable character traits and in some cases some very useful practical skills that would serve them well in other fields after they leave, that does not go for everyone, and many ex-forces personnel have great difficulty adapting back to civilian life, even if they've had a good military career. Abandoning people almost immediately after they've been through that, as if they're just leaving behind a web site they used to run or some clients whose accounts they used to put in a spreadsheet, is somewhere near the wrong end of the inhumane/unethical scale.

by gaius 9y ago

robin_reala 9y ago

If I leave a company I’m basically discarded by that company. I worked for the U.K. government and I’ve got a reasonable pension and nothing else. Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job.

gaius 9y ago
Most jobs do not require you to undergo an institutionalising training process, nor to place yourself at risk of violent death, nor to move house or even country every couple of years, nor many other things.
- robin_reala 9y ago
  But it’s your choice to undergo that. No-one in modern Britain is forced into military service.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Well, it was your choice to work for the UK gov, why should you be entitled to a gold-plated final salary pension? Because it's - supposedly - a reasonable expectation for the opportunity cost of taking a different kind of job than you would find working for a corporation. Nowadays of course public sector salaries outstrip the private sector, so probably the pension should be scrapped.
    - shubb 9y ago
      Public sector jobs pay maybe better than market in rural and economically dead areas of the UK. In the South East, they generally pay worse. If you don't believe me, go find your job in the civil service website and remember there is no salary negotiation. Senior civil servants make good bank though and have very nice revolving door opportunities, so it's a good career option financially if you expect to get there (i.e. elite education and very good at debates). The final salary pensions you mention have mostly been closed to new entrants - now you just buy into a fund and cash it for an annuity like anywhere else, with like 3-5% employer matched contributions. Existing staff often still have them but can get pushed off them during reorgs so I figure they will be completely gone in about 10 years.
- yaseer 9y ago
  A suitable analogy might be with the police. Both are employed by the state and face risks of daily violence in their jobs. Veterans are hero-worshipped by comparison. I actually feel the police deserve more respect. (At least the British police - can't say I have the same affection for the American police, at least based on the news reports over here...).
chrisseaton 9y ago
Do you literally think being a soldier is just a job, with no differences to normal civilian employment?
- robin_reala 9y ago
  I think that it’s a job that the soldier chooses to do, and were I to do that and suffer injuries (mental or physical) I’d expect to be treated by the NHS in the same way that I’d expect an industrial accident to be treated, or a first respinder’s PTSD to be treated. It shouldn’t be held apart, because holding apart leads to hero worship, which leads to the wrong kind of nationalism. It’s insidious.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    I don't agree with any kind of hero worship or 'thank you for your service' either! It makes me cringe. But it really doesn't make any sense to argue that 'it's just a job'. That's simply technically wrong. A soldier is subject to a whole additional legal system to civilians. They can go to prison if they don't do the work they're told to do. They can go to prison if they leave before their contract is us. They can be told to do something that they know will get them killed. None of these things are anything like any other job.
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      That’s reasonable, but maybe the answer is to dismantle the additional legal framework about that industry? I’ve not seen any desire to do so, but that doesn’t mean the conversation isn’t worth having.
  - gaius 9y ago
    I’d expect to be treated by the NHS in the same way Except that a soldier can't even expect that (yes RAF I know but still) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11892935/RAF-sergeant-in-uniform-moved-by-hospital-to-avoid-offending-other-patients.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11892935/RAF-...
  - 9y ago
Silhouette 9y ago
Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job. No, it isn't. People who serve in the armed forces and their families have a different lifestyle to almost anyone else. They make many sacrifices and lack many protections at work that others enjoy, for obvious reasons. They are trained in ways that profoundly affect them psychologically, because they may be forced to see or do things that in an ideal world no-one should ever have to see or do, and neither their mindset nor their experiences of those awful things just magically change back to normal when they're discharged. While serving in the forces may develop some admirable character traits and in some cases some very useful practical skills that would serve them well in other fields after they leave, that does not go for everyone, and many ex-forces personnel have great difficulty adapting back to civilian life, even if they've had a good military career. Abandoning people almost immediately after they've been through that, as if they're just leaving behind a web site they used to run or some clients whose accounts they used to put in a spreadsheet, is somewhere near the wrong end of the inhumane/unethical scale.