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Which article(s) do you recommend for going into more detail on "Evangelion revolutionized anime"? I remember reading on how one of the people involved was sur

by da02 9y ago

Which article(s) do you recommend for going into more detail on "Evangelion revolutionized anime"? I remember reading on how one of the people involved was surprised at its popularity despite all the "characters being messed up".

k__ 9y ago
I don't know where to read, but it seems to me that end of the 90s, TV shows (real and anime) became less episode based but got a whole story arc, like we know from current TV shows like "Game of Thrones", "Breaking Bad" or "The Wire". I always hear people talking about how "The Sopranos" was the first TV show that did this, but anime like "Neon Genesis Evangelion" and "Cowboy Bebop" came out years before it.
- blincoln 9y ago
  AFAIK, J. Michael Straczynski was the first person to get a successful arc-based television series on TV, with _Babylon 5_ - the pilot aired in 1993. He had tried earlier with _Captain Power_ in 1987, but that only lasted a single season, and it was kind of doomed to be thought of as a kid's show because of the toyline tie-in.
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    Soap Operas?
    - da02 9y ago
      I was thinking of that too, especially of all the personal problems the characters had in Evangelion. I had to stop watching because of the main protagonist repeatedly asking why his father doesn't show any love for him. A lot of people are into those story-lines, and I guess it partly explains Evangelion's popularity with women too.
      - aidenn0 9y ago
        This was also part of the point of the show; it was setting itself opposed to all the Mecha anime from the 80s and 90s with teenagers piloting robots, often with no parents around, but showing no external signs of trauma.
      - JohnBooty 9y ago
        Yeah, Shinji is not a lot of fun. Though, he's not really "supposed" to be likeable. Over the years I've warmed up to him, though. He'll never be likeable but he's definitely sympathetic and actually rather realistic, considering the hell he's put through.
        ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Personally, I identified heavily with Shinji when watching the anime for the first time, and binge watching the box set ended up being some form of catharsis, finding someone relatable to myself at the time. I wouldn't say that was the only reason it became one of my favourite TV shows, but it certainly helped. I can understand other people finding him annoying, just wanted to give an alternative perspective from someone who didn't.
    - chc 9y ago
      Babylon 5 was even called a "space opera."
      - da02 9y ago
        Right. The people behind it also wanted to create a "Hill Street Blues" for scifi. They also combined "Lord of the Rings", with each episode being a chapter. This explains Garabaldi's drinking problems, the head doctor getting addicted to drugs, Z'ha'dum, the Rangers, and the ancient races going beyond the galactic rim leaving the younger races to develop.
  - vesak 9y ago
    > AFAIK, J. Michael Straczynski was the first person to get a successful arc-based television series on TV, with _Babylon 5_ - the pilot aired in 1993. Would you consider Twin Peaks (1990) to be arc-based?
- bitwize 9y ago
  Macross and Gundam did this in the 80s. Macross was even viewable here, as Robotech.
  - labster 9y ago
    And Rose of Versailles did it in the 1970s. Don't forget the shoujo demographic, everyone. This whole myth of invention being a singular moment rather than a gradual stream of improvements infects creative works more than other fields. But we all stand on the shoulders of giants.
    - k__ 9y ago
      But who did it first?!?!? xD
ordinaryradical 9y ago
So, this doesn't have the best translation to English, but it's probably the most useful Japanese perspective on why Evangelion was such a revolutionary work for its time. It contextualizes the series as a cultural event and shows how Anno compares with the other convention-breaking directors of that era. http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E.html http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E... Keep in mind that Azuma has his own slant as something of a pop philosopher in Japan, but I think he nails exactly what made Evangelion a surprise and a trendsetter. Let me know if you enjoyed the article—I can post more links on useful reading or you can PM me for more.
- Tyrek 9y ago
  Could you post more links? This has been great reading.
  - gwern 9y ago
    If you have a lot of free time, I have an anthology of mostly out-of-universe discussions by people directly or indirectly involved in Evangelion from 1994 on: https://www.gwern.net/otaku https://www.gwern.net/otaku
    - ordinaryradical 9y ago
      Pretty much everything I'd point you to is all in here (thanks gwern, the fandom truly doesn't deserve you). I highly recommend the 1996 interview with Toshio Okada for a perspective on Anno's mindset, the history of the medium, and the uniqueness of the work. https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-animerica-conscience-otaking https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-animerica-conscience-ota... Also read Azuma's interviews with Anno and especially with Krystian Wozniki--these are very illuminating and will recontextualize your views of Okada and the show as a whole. If you can hold all of these views in mind, you'll start to understand how Evangelion absorbed so much cinematic power from its cultural moment and forebears. It's a culmination of the medium in some ways. That it did all this while remaining an intensely personal work with an auteur's sense of vision and originality makes it that much more impressive.
JohnBooty 9y ago
The best way to understand Evangelion's uniqueness is to become familiar with all the tropes in anime/manga. Then it becomes obvious how Evangelion turned them all on their heads in some of the darkest possible ways -- and became one of the biggest hits of all time in Japan; something truly "generational" like Star Wars. Anime and manga had long excelled at high drama; the space operas and melodramas and such. And the creators of anime and manga were certainly not lacking in self awareness; there were lots of parody and comedy in anime and manga over the years, much of the light parody focusing on other works in their own genres or the general tropes found in those works. But Evangelion was arguably the first major work in which those worlds collided. It never breaks the fourth wall, but the subversion of anime's tropes and conventions is utterly central to its drama. 1. The protagonist is a teenage boy. No surprise there -- the protagonist of any show is usually representative of the target audience. But instead of a simple "boy becomes a man" narrative, he more or less descends into depression and PTSD. The act of piloting a robot in bloody combat against incomprehensible is not healthy for him (because it wouldn't be, for anybody) and he is simultaneously loathable and also incredibly sympathetic because god damn is he put through hell. He responds to these traumatic events in ways that we might - imagine if your abusive father abandoned you and then forced you to become a child soldier? How screwed up would you be? He's probably the first anime protagonist to say: "Wait, this isn't fun. This is seriously fucked up." (And going further down the rabbit-hole of self-awareness, Shinji is painfully aware of how messed up he is) 2. Giant robots. They are a staple of anime for a number of reasons, chiefly because they sell toys, and toy sales help to finance these shows. Evangelion give you "robots," alright, but they are utter nightmare fuel in ways both visual and psychological. 2a. A trope in anime is when the pilots of giant robots "feel" their robots' pain. Evangelion takes this to the darkest and most literal extreme possible, with damage to the robots resulting in physical and emotional damage to the pilots. 3. Weirdest. Love triangle. Ever? It would be spoilers to say more, but it makes Game of Thrones look wholesome by comparison. Romantic tension is a given in... just about anything... but maaaaaaan does Eva make it weird. Another expectation, subverted, darkly. 4. Misato is something of a surrogate mother to Shinji. That gets, uh, interesting. That said, Evangelion is not good just because "it's dark." There are lighthearted moments, and happiness, and some characters grow and become better people. It never feels "dark for the sake of being dark" in the way that some series like Game of Thrones are, where you almost dread the happy moments since those happy moments because they are immediately followed by some sort of gruesome tragedy, as if the viewer themselves is being punished for daring to be happy.

by da02 9y ago

k__ 9y ago

I don't know where to read, but it seems to me that end of the 90s, TV shows (real and anime) became less episode based but got a whole story arc, like we know from current TV shows like "Game of Thrones", "Breaking Bad" or "The Wire". I always hear people talking about how "The Sopranos" was the first TV show that did this, but anime like "Neon Genesis Evangelion" and "Cowboy Bebop" came out years before it.

blincoln 9y ago
AFAIK, J. Michael Straczynski was the first person to get a successful arc-based television series on TV, with _Babylon 5_ - the pilot aired in 1993. He had tried earlier with _Captain Power_ in 1987, but that only lasted a single season, and it was kind of doomed to be thought of as a kid's show because of the toyline tie-in.
- aidenn0 9y ago
  Soap Operas?
  - da02 9y ago
    I was thinking of that too, especially of all the personal problems the characters had in Evangelion. I had to stop watching because of the main protagonist repeatedly asking why his father doesn't show any love for him. A lot of people are into those story-lines, and I guess it partly explains Evangelion's popularity with women too.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      This was also part of the point of the show; it was setting itself opposed to all the Mecha anime from the 80s and 90s with teenagers piloting robots, often with no parents around, but showing no external signs of trauma.
    - JohnBooty 9y ago
      Yeah, Shinji is not a lot of fun. Though, he's not really "supposed" to be likeable. Over the years I've warmed up to him, though. He'll never be likeable but he's definitely sympathetic and actually rather realistic, considering the hell he's put through.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Personally, I identified heavily with Shinji when watching the anime for the first time, and binge watching the box set ended up being some form of catharsis, finding someone relatable to myself at the time. I wouldn't say that was the only reason it became one of my favourite TV shows, but it certainly helped. I can understand other people finding him annoying, just wanted to give an alternative perspective from someone who didn't.
  - chc 9y ago
    Babylon 5 was even called a "space opera."
    - da02 9y ago
      Right. The people behind it also wanted to create a "Hill Street Blues" for scifi. They also combined "Lord of the Rings", with each episode being a chapter. This explains Garabaldi's drinking problems, the head doctor getting addicted to drugs, Z'ha'dum, the Rangers, and the ancient races going beyond the galactic rim leaving the younger races to develop.
- vesak 9y ago
  > AFAIK, J. Michael Straczynski was the first person to get a successful arc-based television series on TV, with _Babylon 5_ - the pilot aired in 1993. Would you consider Twin Peaks (1990) to be arc-based?
bitwize 9y ago
Macross and Gundam did this in the 80s. Macross was even viewable here, as Robotech.
- labster 9y ago
  And Rose of Versailles did it in the 1970s. Don't forget the shoujo demographic, everyone. This whole myth of invention being a singular moment rather than a gradual stream of improvements infects creative works more than other fields. But we all stand on the shoulders of giants.
  - k__ 9y ago
    But who did it first?!?!? xD

ordinaryradical 9y ago

So, this doesn't have the best translation to English, but it's probably the most useful Japanese perspective on why Evangelion was such a revolutionary work for its time. It contextualizes the series as a cultural event and shows how Anno compares with the other convention-breaking directors of that era. http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E.html http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E... Keep in mind that Azuma has his own slant as something of a pop philosopher in Japan, but I think he nails exactly what made Evangelion a surprise and a trendsetter. Let me know if you enjoyed the article—I can post more links on useful reading or you can PM me for more.

Tyrek 9y ago
Could you post more links? This has been great reading.
- gwern 9y ago
  If you have a lot of free time, I have an anthology of mostly out-of-universe discussions by people directly or indirectly involved in Evangelion from 1994 on: https://www.gwern.net/otaku https://www.gwern.net/otaku
  - ordinaryradical 9y ago
    Pretty much everything I'd point you to is all in here (thanks gwern, the fandom truly doesn't deserve you). I highly recommend the 1996 interview with Toshio Okada for a perspective on Anno's mindset, the history of the medium, and the uniqueness of the work. https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-animerica-conscience-otaking https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/1996-animerica-conscience-ota... Also read Azuma's interviews with Anno and especially with Krystian Wozniki--these are very illuminating and will recontextualize your views of Okada and the show as a whole. If you can hold all of these views in mind, you'll start to understand how Evangelion absorbed so much cinematic power from its cultural moment and forebears. It's a culmination of the medium in some ways. That it did all this while remaining an intensely personal work with an auteur's sense of vision and originality makes it that much more impressive.

JohnBooty 9y ago

The best way to understand Evangelion's uniqueness is to become familiar with all the tropes in anime/manga. Then it becomes obvious how Evangelion turned them all on their heads in some of the darkest possible ways -- and became one of the biggest hits of all time in Japan; something truly "generational" like Star Wars. Anime and manga had long excelled at high drama; the space operas and melodramas and such. And the creators of anime and manga were certainly not lacking in self awareness; there were lots of parody and comedy in anime and manga over the years, much of the light parody focusing on other works in their own genres or the general tropes found in those works. But Evangelion was arguably the first major work in which those worlds collided. It never breaks the fourth wall, but the subversion of anime's tropes and conventions is utterly central to its drama. 1. The protagonist is a teenage boy. No surprise there -- the protagonist of any show is usually representative of the target audience. But instead of a simple "boy becomes a man" narrative, he more or less descends into depression and PTSD. The act of piloting a robot in bloody combat against incomprehensible is not healthy for him (because it wouldn't be, for anybody) and he is simultaneously loathable and also incredibly sympathetic because god damn is he put through hell. He responds to these traumatic events in ways that we might - imagine if your abusive father abandoned you and then forced you to become a child soldier? How screwed up would you be? He's probably the first anime protagonist to say: "Wait, this isn't fun. This is seriously fucked up." (And going further down the rabbit-hole of self-awareness, Shinji is painfully aware of how messed up he is) 2. Giant robots. They are a staple of anime for a number of reasons, chiefly because they sell toys, and toy sales help to finance these shows. Evangelion give you "robots," alright, but they are utter nightmare fuel in ways both visual and psychological. 2a. A trope in anime is when the pilots of giant robots "feel" their robots' pain. Evangelion takes this to the darkest and most literal extreme possible, with damage to the robots resulting in physical and emotional damage to the pilots. 3. Weirdest. Love triangle. Ever? It would be spoilers to say more, but it makes Game of Thrones look wholesome by comparison. Romantic tension is a given in... just about anything... but maaaaaaan does Eva make it weird. Another expectation, subverted, darkly. 4. Misato is something of a surrogate mother to Shinji. That gets, uh, interesting. That said, Evangelion is not good just because "it's dark." There are lighthearted moments, and happiness, and some characters grow and become better people. It never feels "dark for the sake of being dark" in the way that some series like Game of Thrones are, where you almost dread the happy moments since those happy moments because they are immediately followed by some sort of gruesome tragedy, as if the viewer themselves is being punished for daring to be happy.