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It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less. This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get thi

It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less. This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get this right because you support a more strict separation of church and state (which is not in the spirit of the German constitution) but this is hardly something the state is to blame for.

SyneRyder 9y ago
Ahh, I didn't realize it was a percentage of income tax. It was explained to me by Germans as tithing, according to the idea of donating 10% of your annual income to the church. I'm not necessarily for or against it, and it does seem pragmatic for the government to automatically collect it on the church's behalf. The part that does seem strange to me is that you have to renounce your religion to opt out of the automatic deduction, but I understand it's a cultural difference. I'm more used to the idea of contributions as voluntary. (I'm not German or religious, just an Australian who is a fan of Berlin & Germany and often considers moving there.)
- _s 9y ago
  You don’t have to “renounce” your religion or anything to that affect, it’s a checkbox on your income tax / wage form where you choose whether you wish to pay it or not. From what I remember it amount to taking ~1% or so off your salary.
  - germanier 9y ago
    You actually have go through a formal renunciation process (which is done at a state authority but your church will get notified and will not be pleased). That checkbox doesn't actually do anything, it is just your declaration of the official religion status. Lying on tax forms is, well, not the best idea.
    - _s 9y ago
      Ah I see - I moved over as a foreigner (no previous religious affiliations) so that’s probably why I didn’t have to do anything beyond the taxation declaration.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        You still have to officially renounce your church membership if you're member of either the catholic or protestant church. Otherwise the church may at some point come and recoup past taxes for up to 10 years.
reitzensteinm 9y ago
It's opt out, which is pretty evil. You can absolutely blame the state for that. https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-tax/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-t...
- germanier 9y ago
  It is not opt-out. Everybody who pays has opted into the system (or in most cases their parents did[0]). Catholic foreigners might be surprised that the Catholic church is considered a single world-wide religious community. If they move to Germany they will be taxed even if they are not religious (because they haven't left – which is in some countries hard or impossible). This is a thing the Catholic church does to their members, not the German state. [0]: It is not a regular contract but even those can bind you if your parents entered into them in your name.
  - reitzensteinm 9y ago
    You immigrate to Germany as an atheist with no affiliation to any church, but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully. You're then taxed 2% of your gross income unless you pay a fee and visit multiple government departments. The money is distributed to private parties with little oversight on its spending. This is enforced by the same body and with the same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation. I think at this point, we're arguing about the definitions of "opt out" and "enforced by the state". "Evil" is open to interpretation, but I stand by it. https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/41305s/church_tax_is_a_scam_why_is_this_still_a_thing_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/41305s/church_tax_...
    - germanier 9y ago
      It's exactly what I said above: The Roman Catholic church is a single world-wide entity and if you become member in one country your rights and duties carry over to Germany if you move here. > but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully Whether or not you answer questions truthfully has no impact on taxation. You might get around paying it if you lie but you are still liable for the tax. > same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation It is not, here is a decent publicly available primer: https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/hrr/archiv/08-08/index.php?sz=11 https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/hrr/archiv/08-08/index.php?sz=... In short: The usual tax offences don't apply to church tax.

SyneRyder 9y ago

Ahh, I didn't realize it was a percentage of income tax. It was explained to me by Germans as tithing, according to the idea of donating 10% of your annual income to the church. I'm not necessarily for or against it, and it does seem pragmatic for the government to automatically collect it on the church's behalf. The part that does seem strange to me is that you have to renounce your religion to opt out of the automatic deduction, but I understand it's a cultural difference. I'm more used to the idea of contributions as voluntary. (I'm not German or religious, just an Australian who is a fan of Berlin & Germany and often considers moving there.)

_s 9y ago
You don’t have to “renounce” your religion or anything to that affect, it’s a checkbox on your income tax / wage form where you choose whether you wish to pay it or not. From what I remember it amount to taking ~1% or so off your salary.
- germanier 9y ago
  You actually have go through a formal renunciation process (which is done at a state authority but your church will get notified and will not be pleased). That checkbox doesn't actually do anything, it is just your declaration of the official religion status. Lying on tax forms is, well, not the best idea.
  - _s 9y ago
    Ah I see - I moved over as a foreigner (no previous religious affiliations) so that’s probably why I didn’t have to do anything beyond the taxation declaration.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      You still have to officially renounce your church membership if you're member of either the catholic or protestant church. Otherwise the church may at some point come and recoup past taxes for up to 10 years.

reitzensteinm 9y ago

It's opt out, which is pretty evil. You can absolutely blame the state for that. https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-tax/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-t...

germanier 9y ago
It is not opt-out. Everybody who pays has opted into the system (or in most cases their parents did[0]). Catholic foreigners might be surprised that the Catholic church is considered a single world-wide religious community. If they move to Germany they will be taxed even if they are not religious (because they haven't left – which is in some countries hard or impossible). This is a thing the Catholic church does to their members, not the German state. [0]: It is not a regular contract but even those can bind you if your parents entered into them in your name.
- reitzensteinm 9y ago
  You immigrate to Germany as an atheist with no affiliation to any church, but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully. You're then taxed 2% of your gross income unless you pay a fee and visit multiple government departments. The money is distributed to private parties with little oversight on its spending. This is enforced by the same body and with the same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation. I think at this point, we're arguing about the definitions of "opt out" and "enforced by the state". "Evil" is open to interpretation, but I stand by it. https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/41305s/church_tax_is_a_scam_why_is_this_still_a_thing_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/41305s/church_tax_...
  - germanier 9y ago
    It's exactly what I said above: The Roman Catholic church is a single world-wide entity and if you become member in one country your rights and duties carry over to Germany if you move here. > but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully Whether or not you answer questions truthfully has no impact on taxation. You might get around paying it if you lie but you are still liable for the tax. > same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation It is not, here is a decent publicly available primer: https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/hrr/archiv/08-08/index.php?sz=11 https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/hrr/archiv/08-08/index.php?sz=... In short: The usual tax offences don't apply to church tax.