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> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically

• kaushikt 9y ago
  > ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government Really doesn't feel like it.
• mrwong 9y ago
  Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.
  • fabian2k 9y ago
    You're almost certainly including social security here, health care and retirement. This is not exactly a fair comparison, as in countries with lower tax burden you have to pay for those yourselves.
  • aaronbrethorst 9y ago
    You're implying that government does nothing—or at least nothing positive, which is a specious argument at best.
  • _s 9y ago
    > Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (placing tax at around 40%). Those taxes already comprise of Social Security* (roughly 20%) and income tax (the remainder 20%). * Health, Retirement, Unemployment etc.
    • krrrh 9y ago
      You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.
      • SyneRyder 9y ago
        There's also the compulsory 9% Church Tax in Germany, unless you formally renounce your religion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11380968/Compulsory-income-tax-on-Christians-drives-Germans-away-from-Protestant-and-Catholic-churches.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/113... Notably: "The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members."
        • germanier 9y ago
          It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less. This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get this right because you support a more strict separation of church and state (which is not in the spirit of the German constitution) but this is hardly something the state is to blame for.
          • SyneRyder 9y ago
            Ahh, I didn't realize it was a percentage of income tax. It was explained to me by Germans as tithing, according to the idea of donating 10% of your annual income to the church. I'm not necessarily for or against it, and it does seem pragmatic for the government to automatically collect it on the church's behalf. The part that does seem strange to me is that you have to renounce your religion to opt out of the automatic deduction, but I understand it's a cultural difference. I'm more used to the idea of contributions as voluntary. (I'm not German or religious, just an Australian who is a fan of Berlin & Germany and often considers moving there.)
  • WA 9y ago
    70%? How do you come up with that? It's roughly 40.5% for most middle class people. If your salary is 4,000€ per month, you get wired 2,380€ to your bank account. Income tax, social security contributions, retirement contributions etc. already deducted. You could add 19% VAT for all purchases on your tax burden, but that's not 70%.
    • mrwong 9y ago
      Like I said its hidden. E.g. my employe pays around 90k for me of which I only see 78k then they apply Tax, pension, healthcare, mandatory unemployment insurance etc, Im left with around 40k. Then i go and spend it and it again gets taxed with 19%. Many products have beeryax, coffetax etc. higest is petrol tax which is 70%. So If i spend 200€ on petrol an month, 70% is tax. I could go on and on. like I said those tax are hidden.
  • kachurovskiy 9y ago
    34% for a family with one child in Munich, 30.5% on capital gains.
  • Tomte 9y ago
    > Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70% Even under a charitable interpretation this is simply wrong. I suppose you have no first-hand experience, but have read that on social media?
    • OoooooooO 9y ago
      If you're self-employed the tax rate is ~70%, at least for lawyers in germany. Source: My self-employed gf. And no, she does not earn 5 figures, 4-6k gross per month with 1 part-time employee for the bureaucracy stuff (bills, phone service, faxing, scanning etc.). With a 60 hour week.
      • germanier 9y ago
        Your girlfriend does not pay 70% tax. This is mathematically impossible if you actually look at all tax rates.
      • Tomte 9y ago
        No, she doesn't. You must be counting all kinds of other expenses. Professional insurance or bar membership, for example.
  • lentil_soup 9y ago
    That's just a big lie, it's nowhere to 70%. Besides it will vary depending on your salary, your state and your personal situation (i.e. kids, married, age). Also worth noting that that tax includes full health insurance. You can easily calculate your take home pay for Germany here: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm
    • laingc 9y ago
      That’s only income tax, not the total tax burden. My total tax burden in Germany (Munich) was around 65%-ish, depending on exactly how aggressively you want to factor corporate taxes into consumer prices.
  • germanier 9y ago
    Any credible calculation[0] puts the tax burden of all groups at 50% at most (and most middle class is not taxed at that number) – including all taxes, contributions, levies, and VAT. You would have to add the employer's contributions to that number (but they are less than 10%). A better measure would be the tax quota (gross national product divided by all taxes and contributions) which is about 35%. This is the effective rate the state gets for everything it does. [0]: Such as the RWI study which really can't be accused of downplaying the numbers http://shop.freiheit.org/download/P2@675/96532/A4_Steuern%20und%20Abgaben_Gutachten.pdf http://shop.freiheit.org/download/P2@675/96532/A4_Steuern%20...
  • throwaway13337 9y ago
    There's also the most hidden tax of all: inflation.
  • TrickyRick 9y ago
    And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.
    • JoshTriplett 9y ago
      > You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you. And when you're done doing so, and decide that it's not a good deal for the money, then you're told to do it again, and again, until you get the "right" answer the person patronizingly telling you to do so expects. It's reasonable to have a discussion about the most reasonable, efficient, and appropriate way to fund certain things, as well as whether they should be funded at all, and whether funding them should be mandatory. Such discussions should not be derailed by people simply saying "think about what you get" as though the people participating in them haven't already thought about that just because they come to different conclusions.
      • olau 9y ago
        Taxes is traditionally a heated subject. I think it's unreasonable to express a simple (one-sided) argument within this subject and not expect a one-sided answer from someone. It is truly a complex subject. Now, I expect someone to disagree with that statement. :)
      • KozmoNau7 9y ago
        History shows us that privatization always ends up being more expensive for the average person, while still providing lower-quality service than the old public system.
        • mrwong 9y ago
          Example please? By that line of thinking the Soviet Union must have had the best and cheapest service and products. Also Venezuela should be a total Dream right now without empty stores, starving children, no murder rampage.
• baybal2 9y ago
  That point is totally valid. "The West" is rapidly becoming a mirror image of the Soviet Union. With half or more of economic value of your work going to uncle Sam, how this is not a state ran economy? If I remember correctly, the split for a typical Soviet citizen was 60/40, and this is where the West will be this decade if government expenses will continue rising at the speed they do.
  • bufferoverflow 9y ago
    That's true of (most of) Europe, the US taxes are lower.
  • aaronbrethorst 9y ago
    Top marginal income tax rates under President Eisenhower (a Republican) were in the low 90%s. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/bernie-s/income-tax-rates-were-90-percent-under-eisenhower-/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/...
    • nickik 9y ago
      This is a total BS argument. Nobody ever payed these taxes. Its far more accurate to look at what part of the GDP the government is spending. That number was the further back you go.
      • aaronbrethorst 9y ago
        I'm citing my sources. You could at least show me the courtesy of doing the same.
        • snowpanda 9y ago
          Not OP but he's right, your statement is slightly misleading, not many people actually paid that (fewer than 10,000 households[1]). A good source as you asked for can be found here: [1] https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-rich-1950-not-high/ https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-rich-1950-not-high/
• pavlov 9y ago
  I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole point of taxes is that it gives options to everyone, not just those lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents. I have a hard time believing that a messaging app founder would spend his money on charities more usefully than the government would spend it on basic services. (Assuming he would donate an amount anywhere close to the tax rate, which he certainly wouldn’t.)
  • nickpp 9y ago
    But wouldn't you have liked to shop around for those free-but-paid-from-your-taxes services? And benefit from competition between providers which drives prices down and quality up? Government are ultimate monopolies: always getting worse and more expensive. Maybe you are thinking about a handful of functioning, high quality governments (US, Germany, Nordic States) but I am thinking about the great majority of the governments on the globe (Africa, Asia, E Europe) which provide really crappy, expensive services.
    • fooker 9y ago
      You can shop around for products. Doesn't work that well for infrastructure.
    • jon-wood 9y ago
      No. I really don't want to shop around when I've been hit by a bus and need urgent medical care. I want to know that whatever hospital the paramedics take me to is going to be equipped to handle things, and that I won't be handed a crippling bill afterwards. I also don't want to shop around for roads, police, fire service, garbage collection, or any number of other things provided by my taxes. I definitely don't want people less well off to go without those things because they couldn't pay. The point of taxes, and particularly progressive taxes, is to ensure everyone has access to services while placing the burden for that on those most able to afford it. That isn't particularly well implemented in many cases, but I strongly believe it should be the goal.
• bufferoverflow 9y ago
  It's not equal to "get rid of the government". It's just that their government runs on oil profits instead of taxes.
  • stfwn 9y ago
    Which is an excellent way to make sure the incentives of the government and its people are aligned. \s
• ekianjo 9y ago
  > ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. Nice Strawman. So complaining about high taxes means you are either for or against having a government?
  • adrianN 9y ago
    It does sound like he is against all taxes. Without taxes it's hard to have anything that you'd recognize as a government.
    • ekianjo 9y ago
      The UAE have no income tax. Does not strike me as a country looming into anarchy.
      • adrianN 9y ago
        Wait until the oil runs out.
• maelito 9y ago
  Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.
  • pfortuny 9y ago
    As long as it is compulsory, it is a tax. Whether it goes to your health problems or your street is irrelevant. If you have no control over the money, it is a tax.
    • Xylakant 9y ago
      Taxes are free to spend for the government, that is they are levied for whatever action or property the legislators choose to tax. Social security, retirement and health care plans are bound to a purpose and cannot legally be spent on other purposes. They often are compulsory but for example in Germany, health care is mandatory and regulated, but the money does not go to the state but rather to a provider of your choice. There’s also fees that the administration can levy as payment for specific acts, they’re bound to that act. Social security payments are not taxes.
      • kogepathic 9y ago
        > Social security payments are not taxes. I agree with you. In my experience most people in Canada, and perhaps the US too, consider any government mandated deductions from your gross salary to be "taxes," regardless of the final destination of the money. This is why you have people arguing that health care contributions and social security payments are "taxes" Source: lived in North America and Europe
      • pfortuny 9y ago
        The fact that the government promises to use that money on some thing or other does not remove the other fact: it is totally compulsory and goes to the Government (who is the only entity able to tax, properly speaking). Hence, Germany's system is not strictly speaking a tax, as one has some choice on the destination. In the same way, donations are not tax (but because they are just contributions to the welfare, they are tax-deductible). Compulsory Social Security payments to the Government are as much tax as VAT.
• Quarrelsome 9y ago
  > ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. Considering he grew up under the USSR, Yeltsin and then Putin I don't really find that surprising. Perhaps he'd have a different point of view if he came from a society where he wasn't forced to sell his social network.
• itsybitsyspider 9y ago
  > ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government No, he's not suggesting anything like that. Working 180 days a year for the government in not ok. He merely points that out.
• kelnos 9y ago
  Yes, when you already have hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank, you can probably afford to duplicate many services that governments provide, if you so choose. Not really an option for >99% of humans.