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I'm trying to picture a nation in which public and cops, both armed-to-the-teeth, coexist within a culture totally smitten with violence, yet by some magic they

I'm trying to picture a nation in which public and cops, both armed-to-the-teeth, coexist within a culture totally smitten with violence, yet by some magic they don't end up shooting each other a lot. I can't do it. No-one can without being ideologically severed from physical reality. One of these states of affairs must prevail for the US, from most to least likely (and least to most desirable): (1) it continues to lose more of its people than any comparable wealthy nation to violence, (2) it hugely reduces the amount of ready-to-hand weaponry (on one side or both), or (3) it diminishes its love affair with violence. The last can nearly be discounted, as it is by now too deeply embedded in the US's economy, history, culture and ideology. (2) seems like a distant prospect for similar reasons. (1) would be a safe bet.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
4. We stop relying on the cultural paradigms that foster this mess and it gets better, likely for reasons people will not understand and will not credit. Einstein said No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. The odds are good that the current framing of the problem is part of the problem.
- crispinb 9y ago
  I'd concur with less hesitation if not for the fact that many nations are so much more successful than the US (in this respect). There are alternate framings up the wazoo on offer, with hard examples to back them up. That caveat aside, I suspect you're right: America is stuck, and getting unstuck will need a novel stimulus of some sort. As to what that might be and where it will lead? Not necessarily 'upwards'.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Other nations don't have our exact history and circumstances. I am not aware of another nation that historically used skin color to demarcate slaves from free.* The original pilgrims came here voluntarily because they could not fit in back in Europe, so comparing it to European norms isn't likely to ever work. If Americans could go along and get along with European norms, the country would have never been born. We are misfits and mavericks and we are coping with an ugly racial legacy that is quite challenging to fully resolve. And maybe part of the answer lies in the current calls for reparations to African Americans. Maybe that will both make Blacks less angry and Whites less likely to feel that Black anger is unjustified, thus ill behaved. Jane Jacobs wrote that eyes on the street is the key to safety. Fostering a safe and civilized climate means working on ideas like that. Confining these discussions to what should happen at the point where a cop has pulled a gun is pretty much guaranteed to fail to solve it. * http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_history_of_american_slavery/2015/05/why_america_adopted_race_based_slavery.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_history_of_american_s...
    - bambax 9y ago
      > We are misfits and mavericks Just because some of today's Americans' ancestors may have been misfits in their home country 400 years ago, doesn't mean every American today is a maverick. And what about Australia? Many Australians descend from actual criminals. Yet when they thought their gun problem was getting out of hand, they decided to fix it... and they did.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        Australia was a penal colony. They did not choose to go there. They were sent. American colonists chose the hardship of leaving their known world for a harsh and deadly new world, often on the idea that you could not make them deny their true religious beliefs merely to get along with the rest of society.
        crispinb 9y ago
        OK the settler-historical determinism is getting the dramatic overreach treatment here. Nearly 30% of Australia's contemporary population are migrants. Of those born here, only a minority (estimates vary) are descended from convicts. Of those convicts, many committed 'crimes' (such as cussing their master or stealing a cake) quite deliberately in order to be transported rather than rot their days away in Old Blighty's grinding poverty and injustice. And then there were large numbers of free settlers, during and after the convict period. Obviously Australian culture has not come out of nowhere, but a simple line from its 'convict' past cannot be drawn as anything other than a very poor caricature. Whereas there are of course historical/cultural contributors to Australia's sanity re arms (notably: a liking of order, and tolerance of authority where it can help maintain that order), there are many others more contemporary in origin. We don't have a large arms industry (our governments choose instead to be corrupted by fossil fuel corporations; arguably just as dangerous). We have had genuinely courageous leadership at pivotal moments. We are not burdened with an archaic constitution. We tend to dissimulate regarding our violent history rather than valorise it. All of these features have their negative contributions in some policy arenas, but have helped nudge us away from a strong gun culture (which has at moments had the potential to emerge). This has very little to do with "us" having been "sent here".
lsh123 9y ago
The problem is not the guns, it’s the accountability for the police actions (see my comment on another thread).
- sametmax 9y ago
  Well, the police is not supposed to expect a gun in a drunk guy's pocket. In france they would not. They would not hold their own gun either in that situation. This situation only exists because it is possible that this guys has a gun in america. It's even frightening that somebody as smart as you didn't see this elephant in the room. The cultural bubble is strong here, and given the influence of your country, it really makes me uneasy.
  - jaccarmac 9y ago
    Most Americans would disagree with you. Most people don't walk around with guns and don't see other people walking around with guns. The fact that it is theoretically possible for a drunk guy to have a gun in his pants is not an elephant in the room because he is in America. The expectation of the officer that the guy is packing has more to do with the militarized police force the the Second Amendment imo.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      I haven't heard of any recent crazy snippers or school shooting in France. You can't shoot guns if you don't have any. The US culture IS strange. You even have this word, 'packing', short for being armed. Having a slang for that is very, very weird from an european point of view. Hell, here, the worst you get for somebody being mugged is that they used a knife. Guns are only for the mafias, which is definitly not day to day operation. Don't get me wrong, i like going to the shooting range. But I woulf not like the content of the club safes to be on the street. But I agree with one thing. I've been to the US 5 times, and the cops are scary. I have to go next year, and I don't feel confortable at all, even just passing the border. It's not a good sign for your country.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

4. We stop relying on the cultural paradigms that foster this mess and it gets better, likely for reasons people will not understand and will not credit. Einstein said No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. The odds are good that the current framing of the problem is part of the problem.

crispinb 9y ago
I'd concur with less hesitation if not for the fact that many nations are so much more successful than the US (in this respect). There are alternate framings up the wazoo on offer, with hard examples to back them up. That caveat aside, I suspect you're right: America is stuck, and getting unstuck will need a novel stimulus of some sort. As to what that might be and where it will lead? Not necessarily 'upwards'.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Other nations don't have our exact history and circumstances. I am not aware of another nation that historically used skin color to demarcate slaves from free.* The original pilgrims came here voluntarily because they could not fit in back in Europe, so comparing it to European norms isn't likely to ever work. If Americans could go along and get along with European norms, the country would have never been born. We are misfits and mavericks and we are coping with an ugly racial legacy that is quite challenging to fully resolve. And maybe part of the answer lies in the current calls for reparations to African Americans. Maybe that will both make Blacks less angry and Whites less likely to feel that Black anger is unjustified, thus ill behaved. Jane Jacobs wrote that eyes on the street is the key to safety. Fostering a safe and civilized climate means working on ideas like that. Confining these discussions to what should happen at the point where a cop has pulled a gun is pretty much guaranteed to fail to solve it. * http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_history_of_american_slavery/2015/05/why_america_adopted_race_based_slavery.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_history_of_american_s...
  - bambax 9y ago
    > We are misfits and mavericks Just because some of today's Americans' ancestors may have been misfits in their home country 400 years ago, doesn't mean every American today is a maverick. And what about Australia? Many Australians descend from actual criminals. Yet when they thought their gun problem was getting out of hand, they decided to fix it... and they did.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      Australia was a penal colony. They did not choose to go there. They were sent. American colonists chose the hardship of leaving their known world for a harsh and deadly new world, often on the idea that you could not make them deny their true religious beliefs merely to get along with the rest of society.
      - crispinb 9y ago
        OK the settler-historical determinism is getting the dramatic overreach treatment here. Nearly 30% of Australia's contemporary population are migrants. Of those born here, only a minority (estimates vary) are descended from convicts. Of those convicts, many committed 'crimes' (such as cussing their master or stealing a cake) quite deliberately in order to be transported rather than rot their days away in Old Blighty's grinding poverty and injustice. And then there were large numbers of free settlers, during and after the convict period. Obviously Australian culture has not come out of nowhere, but a simple line from its 'convict' past cannot be drawn as anything other than a very poor caricature. Whereas there are of course historical/cultural contributors to Australia's sanity re arms (notably: a liking of order, and tolerance of authority where it can help maintain that order), there are many others more contemporary in origin. We don't have a large arms industry (our governments choose instead to be corrupted by fossil fuel corporations; arguably just as dangerous). We have had genuinely courageous leadership at pivotal moments. We are not burdened with an archaic constitution. We tend to dissimulate regarding our violent history rather than valorise it. All of these features have their negative contributions in some policy arenas, but have helped nudge us away from a strong gun culture (which has at moments had the potential to emerge). This has very little to do with "us" having been "sent here".

lsh123 9y ago

The problem is not the guns, it’s the accountability for the police actions (see my comment on another thread).

sametmax 9y ago
Well, the police is not supposed to expect a gun in a drunk guy's pocket. In france they would not. They would not hold their own gun either in that situation. This situation only exists because it is possible that this guys has a gun in america. It's even frightening that somebody as smart as you didn't see this elephant in the room. The cultural bubble is strong here, and given the influence of your country, it really makes me uneasy.
- jaccarmac 9y ago
  Most Americans would disagree with you. Most people don't walk around with guns and don't see other people walking around with guns. The fact that it is theoretically possible for a drunk guy to have a gun in his pants is not an elephant in the room because he is in America. The expectation of the officer that the guy is packing has more to do with the militarized police force the the Second Amendment imo.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    I haven't heard of any recent crazy snippers or school shooting in France. You can't shoot guns if you don't have any. The US culture IS strange. You even have this word, 'packing', short for being armed. Having a slang for that is very, very weird from an european point of view. Hell, here, the worst you get for somebody being mugged is that they used a knife. Guns are only for the mafias, which is definitly not day to day operation. Don't get me wrong, i like going to the shooting range. But I woulf not like the content of the club safes to be on the street. But I agree with one thing. I've been to the US 5 times, and the cops are scary. I have to go next year, and I don't feel confortable at all, even just passing the border. It's not a good sign for your country.