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You currently already have the option not to work. The problem is that since we are not post-scarcity by any definition, there is a negative impact of your choi

You currently already have the option not to work. The problem is that since we are not post-scarcity by any definition, there is a negative impact of your choice on other people. That is the case even with UBI. The question for me is if that negative impact is outweighed by the positive impact of UBI, most of which I think has nothing to do with choosing not to work but instead is about propping up an economy based on labor when we're shifting away from the labor coming from people. I wasn't ascribing morality to your freedom to choose to be entirely dependent on society, I was saying that the moral argument that people are important and that socially we should care about, feed and clothe the needy is mostly grounded in religion. Your use case, where a person intellectually chooses to be dependent on UBI because they don't really like working very much, is very different from the one I envision: robots take your job and you have nothing and so are forced into dependency. The problems this will cause a consumer driven economy are fantastic, and the easy way to prop up said economy is to simply give people money to spend - not too much, or they’d save it. Just enough so that they spend everything you give them, sustaining the cycle. That's the convincing Keynesian argument.

WorldMaker 9y ago
> Your use case, where a person intellectually chooses to be dependent on UBI because they don't really like working very much, is very different from the one I envision: robots take your job and you have nothing and so are forced into dependency. I think that happened already 20 years ago, though not just robots but also centaurs (in the chess sense of people using computers/working in tandem with machines) have taken most of the jobs, even accounting for globalization. I think the reason we aren't talking about it, in that way, is that it's still too easy to sweep the problems under the rug. It's still too easy to blame the people that are out of work rather than the labor market that doesn't need people. A society is people. People being dependent on their society is somewhere between an oxymoron and baseline assumption. Everyone is dependent on the day to day cooperation of their society, in one way or another, even if it is "just" roads, and breathable air, and a political reality in which they can live their day-to-day. I think we are far too stuck on "someone not working is taking away from me", because we see it as some zero-sum game, but robots and centaurs have changed the equations. The labor market is unfair and neither free nor liquid, and yet we are letting it ascribe morals to people, looking down on people working multiple jobs to make ends meet (because the labor market has no incentive to offer a fair price) or who can't find work because there isn't enough work to go around. I think it is far past time to stop judging our neighbors by their position in the labor market. For me, a part of that is realizing that a global and broad option to leave the labor market is important, that we should celebrate that as a right. If capitalism needs more hands on deck, it can pay for them. It's time to stop assuming everyone should work, and let the market tell us why we should work (and how much it is willing to pay to let that work get done). We don't really have an option not to work so long as our basic subsistence is tied to how we spend our labor. But companies don't have to do right by us, because they aren't our societies, they don't need us, they don't depend on us. The basic problem is that we are post-scarcity in the labor market, and companies have a "free lunch" by this "morality" that basic subsidence should be tied to some nominal value of productivity that they decide based on a quarter-to-quarter bottom line. Why should society continue to give capitalism this free lunch? I think society should invest more directly in its people. I think this zero-sum mentality that to invest in a person who chooses not to work has some "negative impact on other people" hurts us as people, and is a bad excuse for society in general. The fact that there may be some people who decide to spend that investment solely on shortening their life with as much alcohol as they may acquire doesn't mean that a society investing in people has a net negative impact on everyone else.
- ameister14 9y ago
  >A society is people. People being dependent on their society is somewhere between an oxymoron and baseline assumption. Everyone is dependent on the day to day cooperation of their society, in one way or another, even if it is "just" roads, and breathable air, and a political reality in which they can live their day-to-day. In some sense, people depend on society to maintain their quality of life and provide for a subset of their needs; people also contribute to society and maintain it in turn. You're talking about cutting out the latter and keeping the former without replacing it with anything to support yourself with, which makes you completely dependent on society to provide everything for you, not just some things. I didn't and I don't think most people do look down on those that cannot find work because there is no work to be found. Your 'I want to be able to choose not to work despite having the opportunity to work' perspective, though - that I look down on. By the way, if you decided to work for yourself - to grow your own food, live off the land, and trade your labor specifically for your own sustenance, you could probably do it. That's a choice you continuously make. >If capitalism needs more hands on deck, it can pay for them. It's time to stop assuming everyone should work, and let the market tell us why we should work (and how much it is willing to pay to let that work get done). It already does do that. I don't volunteer at my job, I'm paid for my labor. The market tells you why you should work by pricing goods. You should work so that you can afford goods and services that improve your life. If you don't want any of those things, that's fine, but there's an argument to be had about whether my labor should subsidize your lack of it. >companies don't have to do right by us, because they aren't our societies, they don't need us, they don't depend on us. The basic problem is that we are post-scarcity in the labor market, and companies have a "free lunch" by this "morality" that basic subsidence should be tied to some nominal value of productivity that they decide based on a quarter-to-quarter bottom line. This is a weird argument to me, because companies absolutely depend on their workers. There are deficiencies in the labor market that cause certain labor to be valued at a higher rate than others; companies routinely hire from their competitors and give their workers raises or better offers. That's the labor market at work. It's not a free lunch. >I think society should invest more directly in its people. I agree. I think subsidized education is a pretty good thing, and it has positive impacts on society which is why we continue to do it. 'Investing in people' doesn't mean paying you to do nothing, though; that'd be a pretty terrible investment.

WorldMaker 9y ago

> Your use case, where a person intellectually chooses to be dependent on UBI because they don't really like working very much, is very different from the one I envision: robots take your job and you have nothing and so are forced into dependency. I think that happened already 20 years ago, though not just robots but also centaurs (in the chess sense of people using computers/working in tandem with machines) have taken most of the jobs, even accounting for globalization. I think the reason we aren't talking about it, in that way, is that it's still too easy to sweep the problems under the rug. It's still too easy to blame the people that are out of work rather than the labor market that doesn't need people. A society is people. People being dependent on their society is somewhere between an oxymoron and baseline assumption. Everyone is dependent on the day to day cooperation of their society, in one way or another, even if it is "just" roads, and breathable air, and a political reality in which they can live their day-to-day. I think we are far too stuck on "someone not working is taking away from me", because we see it as some zero-sum game, but robots and centaurs have changed the equations. The labor market is unfair and neither free nor liquid, and yet we are letting it ascribe morals to people, looking down on people working multiple jobs to make ends meet (because the labor market has no incentive to offer a fair price) or who can't find work because there isn't enough work to go around. I think it is far past time to stop judging our neighbors by their position in the labor market. For me, a part of that is realizing that a global and broad option to leave the labor market is important, that we should celebrate that as a right. If capitalism needs more hands on deck, it can pay for them. It's time to stop assuming everyone should work, and let the market tell us why we should work (and how much it is willing to pay to let that work get done). We don't really have an option not to work so long as our basic subsistence is tied to how we spend our labor. But companies don't have to do right by us, because they aren't our societies, they don't need us, they don't depend on us. The basic problem is that we are post-scarcity in the labor market, and companies have a "free lunch" by this "morality" that basic subsidence should be tied to some nominal value of productivity that they decide based on a quarter-to-quarter bottom line. Why should society continue to give capitalism this free lunch? I think society should invest more directly in its people. I think this zero-sum mentality that to invest in a person who chooses not to work has some "negative impact on other people" hurts us as people, and is a bad excuse for society in general. The fact that there may be some people who decide to spend that investment solely on shortening their life with as much alcohol as they may acquire doesn't mean that a society investing in people has a net negative impact on everyone else.

ameister14 9y ago
>A society is people. People being dependent on their society is somewhere between an oxymoron and baseline assumption. Everyone is dependent on the day to day cooperation of their society, in one way or another, even if it is "just" roads, and breathable air, and a political reality in which they can live their day-to-day. In some sense, people depend on society to maintain their quality of life and provide for a subset of their needs; people also contribute to society and maintain it in turn. You're talking about cutting out the latter and keeping the former without replacing it with anything to support yourself with, which makes you completely dependent on society to provide everything for you, not just some things. I didn't and I don't think most people do look down on those that cannot find work because there is no work to be found. Your 'I want to be able to choose not to work despite having the opportunity to work' perspective, though - that I look down on. By the way, if you decided to work for yourself - to grow your own food, live off the land, and trade your labor specifically for your own sustenance, you could probably do it. That's a choice you continuously make. >If capitalism needs more hands on deck, it can pay for them. It's time to stop assuming everyone should work, and let the market tell us why we should work (and how much it is willing to pay to let that work get done). It already does do that. I don't volunteer at my job, I'm paid for my labor. The market tells you why you should work by pricing goods. You should work so that you can afford goods and services that improve your life. If you don't want any of those things, that's fine, but there's an argument to be had about whether my labor should subsidize your lack of it. >companies don't have to do right by us, because they aren't our societies, they don't need us, they don't depend on us. The basic problem is that we are post-scarcity in the labor market, and companies have a "free lunch" by this "morality" that basic subsidence should be tied to some nominal value of productivity that they decide based on a quarter-to-quarter bottom line. This is a weird argument to me, because companies absolutely depend on their workers. There are deficiencies in the labor market that cause certain labor to be valued at a higher rate than others; companies routinely hire from their competitors and give their workers raises or better offers. That's the labor market at work. It's not a free lunch. >I think society should invest more directly in its people. I agree. I think subsidized education is a pretty good thing, and it has positive impacts on society which is why we continue to do it. 'Investing in people' doesn't mean paying you to do nothing, though; that'd be a pretty terrible investment.