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Yes. In Debian 7 one could switch among van Smoorenburg init+rc, systemd, upstart, and Felix von Leitner's minit. runit-init had been removed in 2010. Felix

by JdeBP 9y ago

Yes. In Debian 7 one could switch among van Smoorenburg init+rc, systemd, upstart, and Felix von Leitner's minit. runit-init had been removed in 2010. Felix von Leitner's minit was later removed by Debian member Iain R. Learmonth in November 2015. upstart was removed as a consequence of a bug report (#789524) filed by Kyle Amon in June 2015. One of the contentious events during the Debian Hoo-Hah was one of the package maintainers leaping to remove support for an init system from one package almost as soon as the Technical Committee had made its decision favouring systemd over upstart, OpenRC, and van Smoorenburg rc. People opined then that Debian package maintainers should not blithely remove support for init systems like that. * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746715 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746715 More recently, however, this has begun to happen. In August 2017, a group of Debian people got together to organize the removal of all upstart support from all packages; and that is progressing. * https://lintian.debian.org/tags/package-installs-deprecated-upstart-configuration.html https://lintian.debian.org/tags/package-installs-deprecated-...

icebraining 9y ago
Right, but sysv is still around, so if "support" means having the package, then Debian still supports other init systems. The complaint here is that stuff doesn't work well with sysv, so my question is: if back in Debian 7 something didn't work well with Upstart, was that considered a blocking bug? If not, I fail to see what changed. As you pointed out, they already removed obsolete init systems before systemd came around, so removing Upstart (which has been abandoned by upstream) is not a change in regular procedure.
- JdeBP 9y ago
  Neither runit nor minit were, or are, obsolete; and systemd was around in 2010.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I mean obsolete as Debian packages. In any case, why do you say it was removed? runit seems to have been present in every version released since 2010. As for systemd, it wasn't as a Debian package, so it's hardly relevant for this discussion. It was only even packaged in 2012.
    - JdeBP 9y ago
      That concept of "obsolete as a Debian package" does not really exist, so you are asserting something meaningless. And you brought up the timing of systemd yourself, only to then find that your point was wrong. You have a lot to learn about the rather sad history of runit and daemontools in Debian, as well as about the ways that Debian people decide what is packaged. This is only some of it. * https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/runit-run https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/runit-run * http://smarden.org/pape/ http://smarden.org/pape/ * https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/11/msg00059.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/11/msg00059.html * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/284453/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/284453/5132 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766187#78 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766187#78 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=861536#44 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=861536#44 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=752075#35 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=752075#35
      - icebraining 9y ago
        I understand that the ways that Debian developers make their decisions is not to your liking, but I disagree with your presentation of the facts, nor do I care for your passive-aggressive accusations. Runit-init-the software was not removed from Debian. Only runit-init-the-package was removed and that was long before systemd-the-package (which, yes, was what I was referring to) appeared, and it was by a ROM from the author himself, after a bug report classified as RC (justifiably, in my opinion). So I fail to see any changes in behavior by the Debian team, since I don't believe in this conspiracy theory that Debian Developers were finding bugs in other init systems just to push for systemd, despite not even caring enough to package it. Could they be more open to other init systems? Probably. But that was never my question.

by JdeBP 9y ago

icebraining 9y ago

Right, but sysv is still around, so if "support" means having the package, then Debian still supports other init systems. The complaint here is that stuff doesn't work well with sysv, so my question is: if back in Debian 7 something didn't work well with Upstart, was that considered a blocking bug? If not, I fail to see what changed. As you pointed out, they already removed obsolete init systems before systemd came around, so removing Upstart (which has been abandoned by upstream) is not a change in regular procedure.

JdeBP 9y ago
Neither runit nor minit were, or are, obsolete; and systemd was around in 2010.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I mean obsolete as Debian packages. In any case, why do you say it was removed? runit seems to have been present in every version released since 2010. As for systemd, it wasn't as a Debian package, so it's hardly relevant for this discussion. It was only even packaged in 2012.
  - JdeBP 9y ago
    That concept of "obsolete as a Debian package" does not really exist, so you are asserting something meaningless. And you brought up the timing of systemd yourself, only to then find that your point was wrong. You have a lot to learn about the rather sad history of runit and daemontools in Debian, as well as about the ways that Debian people decide what is packaged. This is only some of it. * https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/runit-run https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/runit-run * http://smarden.org/pape/ http://smarden.org/pape/ * https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/11/msg00059.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/11/msg00059.html * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/284453/5132 https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/284453/5132 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766187#78 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766187#78 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=861536#44 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=861536#44 * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=752075#35 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=752075#35
    - icebraining 9y ago
      I understand that the ways that Debian developers make their decisions is not to your liking, but I disagree with your presentation of the facts, nor do I care for your passive-aggressive accusations. Runit-init-the software was not removed from Debian. Only runit-init-the-package was removed and that was long before systemd-the-package (which, yes, was what I was referring to) appeared, and it was by a ROM from the author himself, after a bug report classified as RC (justifiably, in my opinion). So I fail to see any changes in behavior by the Debian team, since I don't believe in this conspiracy theory that Debian Developers were finding bugs in other init systems just to push for systemd, despite not even caring enough to package it. Could they be more open to other init systems? Probably. But that was never my question.