5 ms·

they should be indoctrinating kids at school that nuclear is safe, rather than other "stuff" they tell them nowadays

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Totally. You're probably catching downvotes from people offended by "indoctrination", but a) indoctrination is what schools do, that's their purpose, and b) nuclear is actually pretty safe. I agree with the sentiment. Anti-science sentiments proliferate partly because science doesn't spend much on public outreach, especially compared to people who want to make a buck off scaring others about new technologies. NASA has been doing more and more PR work over the past few years, and that's great - but IMO in this case, they really need to get someone who looks and sounds confident, and who would go on national TV and say "Yes, we are totally sending a nuclear reactor to space, why wouldn't we?".
- matt4077 9y ago
  In your zeal to defend nuclear energy, you're come around full circle, defending something indefensible, with arguments far removed from actual science. Nuclear energy may be safe, if done under near-perfect condition, with extremely large budgets to understand risks, and plans to mitigate incidents. There is truth to the argument that nuclear power saves lives compared to coal power. But nuclear power isn't inherently safe. It is, by its very nature, extremely dangerous. Actual nuclear scientists understand that. See, for example, Feynman's work on nuclear safety during the Manhattan project. Strapping a nuclear reactor to a rocket is almost by definition a dirty bomb. Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere. The dose-response relationship of radiation exposure is largely linear, meaning the latter event might just increase your risk of brain cancer by 0.005%. Yes, you may consider it negligible. But statistically, it would kill half a million people. To blithely state that "nuclear is safe, hoho, why shouldn't we strap Plutonium to a rocket, you environmental nincompoops" has nothing to do with science, and gives science a bad name. Maybe NASA could come up with a way to protect a reactor during a missile launch. But it wouldn't be easy, and saying "why wouldn't we?" on TV would not inspire confidence in their abilities, but doubts in their sanity. The right thing to say on TV is "We're sending a reactor into space, and here are the mechanisms we've come up with to make it safe..."
  - gambiting 9y ago
    "Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere." The thing about this reactor is that it doesn't work until you switch it on - so in case of an explosion you are spreading a near-stable isotope that you could handle without any health risks. Chernobyl doesn't compare, because the ashes were spreading isotopes produced as a result of operating the reactor, and are simply not present here until the reactor is actually switched on.
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    the nuclear reactors you are so afraid of were designed in the 60s and haven't gone through stringent computer simulations, nowadays you have 100s of companies test every single part that will end up in a working reactor, it's come a long way.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I wasn't aiming for the full pro-nuclear argument in a single comment, because it's a well-trodden road. Nuclear safety issues have been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere. But maybe I should have stated my main assumption explicitly: people at NASA know what they're doing. They're not incompetent morons, they can do the math. They already have absurd amounts of procedures in place to ensure a launch failure doesn't hurt anyone. They're not just trying to strap a bunch of random nuclear isotopes on a rocket and hope for the best. > Strapping a nuclear reactor to a rocket is almost by definition a dirty bomb. No, it isn't. A dirty bomb is meant to create a large-scale radioactive contamination that's dangerous to humans, and U-235 is probably the last thing you'd like to put in it. It's an alpha emitter with a half-life so long it doesn't matter, so the only effect you'd get is heavy metal poisoning. (That's beyond the fact that dirty bombs are speculative devices, and from what I read, they actually turned out not to be a real issue in practice.) > Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere. That's the kind of thinking that I suggest we need to fight with a serious public outreach effort. Chernobyl was a total clusterfuck, but the only connection between it and the NASA project is the word "nuclear" in newspaper headlines. Chernobyl was an active reactor, and its explosion contaminated the area with reaction products that had very low half-life and underwent beta and gamma decay, making them really dangerous, unlike plain U-235. > To blithely state that "nuclear is safe, hoho, why shouldn't we strap Plutonium to a rocket, you environmental nincompoops" has nothing to do with science, and gives science a bad name. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there's so much baseless fear around nuclear energy as a whole, that it's high time we stopped treating it as reasonable. And right now, the biggest danger around nuclear energy is the cost in lives of it not being used instead of fossil fuels.
- 7952 9y ago
  I don't think people respond well to this kind of objective reasoning, it just doesn't work very well as an argument. At worse it can sound like you are calling them dumb. We need to explain the benefits, and why they are worth a tiny amount of risk. And accept that sceticism and concern are exactly what an intelligent layman should be exhibiting. Wondering if the thing is going to explode and cause cancer is a perfectly legitimate question to ask. To pursuade people you need to engage with them on an emotional level, not just bash them dismissively.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I agree. I didn't mean bashing people, just addressing some of the more irrational worries confidently as non-issues. The way I feel it, engaging with irrationality legitimizes it. You don't want to do that too much. If you bend over yourself to explain that people really don't need to worry, it'll only make them feel that there is something to fear. What I want to suggest is engaging with people on an emotional level, but projecting confidence while doing so.
elihu 9y ago
Nuclear isn't inherently safe, though. It can be safe if the people do their jobs correctly. Whether you believe it is safe really comes down to whether you believe that regulatory agencies can provide adequate oversight to prevent people from cutting corners, making bad risk/benefit trade-offs, or sweeping problems under the rug to protect their jobs. That's more of a political problem than a technical one, and I don't really blame people for being skeptical that oversight in real-world scenarios is 100% effective.

Totally. You're probably catching downvotes from people offended by "indoctrination", but a) indoctrination is what schools do, that's their purpose, and b) nuclear is actually pretty safe. I agree with the sentiment. Anti-science sentiments proliferate partly because science doesn't spend much on public outreach, especially compared to people who want to make a buck off scaring others about new technologies. NASA has been doing more and more PR work over the past few years, and that's great - but IMO in this case, they really need to get someone who looks and sounds confident, and who would go on national TV and say "Yes, we are totally sending a nuclear reactor to space, why wouldn't we?".

matt4077 9y ago
In your zeal to defend nuclear energy, you're come around full circle, defending something indefensible, with arguments far removed from actual science. Nuclear energy may be safe, if done under near-perfect condition, with extremely large budgets to understand risks, and plans to mitigate incidents. There is truth to the argument that nuclear power saves lives compared to coal power. But nuclear power isn't inherently safe. It is, by its very nature, extremely dangerous. Actual nuclear scientists understand that. See, for example, Feynman's work on nuclear safety during the Manhattan project. Strapping a nuclear reactor to a rocket is almost by definition a dirty bomb. Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere. The dose-response relationship of radiation exposure is largely linear, meaning the latter event might just increase your risk of brain cancer by 0.005%. Yes, you may consider it negligible. But statistically, it would kill half a million people. To blithely state that "nuclear is safe, hoho, why shouldn't we strap Plutonium to a rocket, you environmental nincompoops" has nothing to do with science, and gives science a bad name. Maybe NASA could come up with a way to protect a reactor during a missile launch. But it wouldn't be easy, and saying "why wouldn't we?" on TV would not inspire confidence in their abilities, but doubts in their sanity. The right thing to say on TV is "We're sending a reactor into space, and here are the mechanisms we've come up with to make it safe..."
- gambiting 9y ago
  "Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere." The thing about this reactor is that it doesn't work until you switch it on - so in case of an explosion you are spreading a near-stable isotope that you could handle without any health risks. Chernobyl doesn't compare, because the ashes were spreading isotopes produced as a result of operating the reactor, and are simply not present here until the reactor is actually switched on.
- jlebrech 9y ago
  the nuclear reactors you are so afraid of were designed in the 60s and haven't gone through stringent computer simulations, nowadays you have 100s of companies test every single part that will end up in a working reactor, it's come a long way.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I wasn't aiming for the full pro-nuclear argument in a single comment, because it's a well-trodden road. Nuclear safety issues have been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere. But maybe I should have stated my main assumption explicitly: people at NASA know what they're doing. They're not incompetent morons, they can do the math. They already have absurd amounts of procedures in place to ensure a launch failure doesn't hurt anyone. They're not just trying to strap a bunch of random nuclear isotopes on a rocket and hope for the best. > Strapping a nuclear reactor to a rocket is almost by definition a dirty bomb. No, it isn't. A dirty bomb is meant to create a large-scale radioactive contamination that's dangerous to humans, and U-235 is probably the last thing you'd like to put in it. It's an alpha emitter with a half-life so long it doesn't matter, so the only effect you'd get is heavy metal poisoning. (That's beyond the fact that dirty bombs are speculative devices, and from what I read, they actually turned out not to be a real issue in practice.) > Depending on the height and mode of an eventual launch failure, the result could be anything from Tchernobyl to a less-dramatic yet more deadly dispersal of nuclear material in the upper atmosphere. That's the kind of thinking that I suggest we need to fight with a serious public outreach effort. Chernobyl was a total clusterfuck, but the only connection between it and the NASA project is the word "nuclear" in newspaper headlines. Chernobyl was an active reactor, and its explosion contaminated the area with reaction products that had very low half-life and underwent beta and gamma decay, making them really dangerous, unlike plain U-235. > To blithely state that "nuclear is safe, hoho, why shouldn't we strap Plutonium to a rocket, you environmental nincompoops" has nothing to do with science, and gives science a bad name. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there's so much baseless fear around nuclear energy as a whole, that it's high time we stopped treating it as reasonable. And right now, the biggest danger around nuclear energy is the cost in lives of it not being used instead of fossil fuels.
7952 9y ago
I don't think people respond well to this kind of objective reasoning, it just doesn't work very well as an argument. At worse it can sound like you are calling them dumb. We need to explain the benefits, and why they are worth a tiny amount of risk. And accept that sceticism and concern are exactly what an intelligent layman should be exhibiting. Wondering if the thing is going to explode and cause cancer is a perfectly legitimate question to ask. To pursuade people you need to engage with them on an emotional level, not just bash them dismissively.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I agree. I didn't mean bashing people, just addressing some of the more irrational worries confidently as non-issues. The way I feel it, engaging with irrationality legitimizes it. You don't want to do that too much. If you bend over yourself to explain that people really don't need to worry, it'll only make them feel that there is something to fear. What I want to suggest is engaging with people on an emotional level, but projecting confidence while doing so.

elihu 9y ago

Nuclear isn't inherently safe, though. It can be safe if the people do their jobs correctly. Whether you believe it is safe really comes down to whether you believe that regulatory agencies can provide adequate oversight to prevent people from cutting corners, making bad risk/benefit trade-offs, or sweeping problems under the rug to protect their jobs. That's more of a political problem than a technical one, and I don't really blame people for being skeptical that oversight in real-world scenarios is 100% effective.