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Wrong: Arguing from one example. You said engineers were not prisoners. This was not the case, and I provided a counterexample. That's all. I have no idea wher

by gcv 16y ago

Wrong: Arguing from one example. You said engineers were not prisoners. This was not the case, and I provided a counterexample. That's all. I have no idea where you found anything in my post about American moral superiority. As for Soviet scientific progress, I also made no other points in my original post — but I will take the opportunity to do so now. Yes, they had sharashkas up until 1953. The Wikipedia article states that. Do you really believe that Khruschev, just because he chose to oust Stalin, gave up on such a convenient source of scientific labor? Keep in mind that history in the Soviet Union was always a complete fabrication dictated by the latest Party ideology. While I don't question that many forced labor camps closed, I seriously doubt that those closings were universal.

rdtsc 16y ago
> You said engineers were not prisoners. I would be willing to bet you that engineers working on the Typhoon class submarines were not prisoners. In general engineering was an esteemed and respected profession. Think lawyers and doctors in US. These are all general statement relating to the situation in Soviet Union based on a personal experience. Your comment made it sound like "no, that is _wrong_ most engineers were prisoners". That is just simply wrong. There we some engineers who were also prisoners. But most of them were not. Those engineers that worked on building submarines were doing very well. That was a very prestigious job. Again think about someone being a stock broker or a corporate lawyer in US. > The Wikipedia article states that. Do you really believe that Khruschev, just because he chose to oust Stalin, gave up on such a convenient source of scientific labor? Alright the history of the Soviet Union might have been obscured and covered in secrets but you forgot one important thing -- the Soviet Union fell apart. It lasted only 70 years and people from the 50s are still alive. So no matter how much the Soviets tried to rewrite the history, as long as there are still millions of eye witnesses it is just not possible. > I have no idea where you found anything in my post about American moral superiority. You are right, you didn't say it. I put those words in your mouth because I thought you implied it. The reason I thought that is that your perception of the situation in the ex-Soviet Union, especially as far as the naval engineering goes, is completely wrong. Being that you refuse to admit that it is wrong, leads me to believe that you are just drumming up the same boring Cold War propaganda that we've heard before from the Americans -- stuff like "in Soviet Union everyone was in a Gulag", ... , "any progress was made just because people were prisoners and forced to work",... and so on. I am not excusing or romanticizing the ex Soviet empire. I am glad it fell, I didn't like. I want to be able to write whatever crap I want online without the fear of someone knocking on my door and so on. BUT painting everything with a broad black brush is just wrong. Life in the Soviet Union was not hell, people were not crying on the streets, everyone had their basic needs taken care of, crime was law and so on. No matter how much we want to hate it, we cannot re-write that, because that as well would just as dishonest and wrong.

by gcv 16y ago

rdtsc 16y ago

> You said engineers were not prisoners. I would be willing to bet you that engineers working on the Typhoon class submarines were not prisoners. In general engineering was an esteemed and respected profession. Think lawyers and doctors in US. These are all general statement relating to the situation in Soviet Union based on a personal experience. Your comment made it sound like "no, that is _wrong_ most engineers were prisoners". That is just simply wrong. There we some engineers who were also prisoners. But most of them were not. Those engineers that worked on building submarines were doing very well. That was a very prestigious job. Again think about someone being a stock broker or a corporate lawyer in US. > The Wikipedia article states that. Do you really believe that Khruschev, just because he chose to oust Stalin, gave up on such a convenient source of scientific labor? Alright the history of the Soviet Union might have been obscured and covered in secrets but you forgot one important thing -- the Soviet Union fell apart. It lasted only 70 years and people from the 50s are still alive. So no matter how much the Soviets tried to rewrite the history, as long as there are still millions of eye witnesses it is just not possible. > I have no idea where you found anything in my post about American moral superiority. You are right, you didn't say it. I put those words in your mouth because I thought you implied it. The reason I thought that is that your perception of the situation in the ex-Soviet Union, especially as far as the naval engineering goes, is completely wrong. Being that you refuse to admit that it is wrong, leads me to believe that you are just drumming up the same boring Cold War propaganda that we've heard before from the Americans -- stuff like "in Soviet Union everyone was in a Gulag", ... , "any progress was made just because people were prisoners and forced to work",... and so on. I am not excusing or romanticizing the ex Soviet empire. I am glad it fell, I didn't like. I want to be able to write whatever crap I want online without the fear of someone knocking on my door and so on. BUT painting everything with a broad black brush is just wrong. Life in the Soviet Union was not hell, people were not crying on the streets, everyone had their basic needs taken care of, crime was law and so on. No matter how much we want to hate it, we cannot re-write that, because that as well would just as dishonest and wrong.