5 ms·

And the people making those incentives know it! They can't always legally tell an employee to do bad/illegal things, but they sure know how to build a system wh

And the people making those incentives know it! They can't always legally tell an employee to do bad/illegal things, but they sure know how to build a system where thats the only option.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
Exactly, it's in the company's best interest to have people do as much as possible for as little as possible money. This is why we have worker rights, things like minimum wage and maximum working hours. As well as health coverage etc. Or should anyway. But nope, money first, people second.
- 59nadir 9y ago
  Thanks, Ctulhu, for looking out for the common man. :) On-topic: Workers' rights have taken a backseat due to aggressive lobbying for several decades, not least in the US. Even in countries with very strong socialist foundations unions are hollowed out to the point where entire fields like IT feel like they have no use for them. Sweden is a good example: IT professionals are sought after to the point where they currently (rightly) feel like they have no use for unions, but when they turn out to be the new factory workers they won't have an already established base to unionize on. Maybe I'm silly to worry, but I feel like this is all a pretty big mistake.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Maybe that's because the Swedish unions did not historically unionize as much in the M&P area.
  - zxd1098 9y ago
    Are you actually advocating for socialism on a site centered around VC-funded tech companies that absolutely couldn’t exist in a socialist country? Awesome.
    - taohansen 9y ago
      VC-backed companies do exist in socialist countries (i’m from Denmark). maybe it’s all time Hacker News readers did start arguing for socialism: self-obsession exists now in more abundance than ever and capitalism is doing everything it can to broaden the cloak of its dreadful shadow
      - zxd1098 9y ago
        I guess my point is, the socialist movement in the USA seems to favor things like taxing income over 1MM USD at 90ish percent. At that point, what would possibly be the point of risking a 1MM investment to only make 10% if the company doubled in value?
        Saavedro 9y ago
        Our system is already structured in a way to incentivize actually reinvesting and doing stuff with that money instead of adding it to one's personal hoard -- think that but enough to actually be effective
    - EliRivers 9y ago
      Socialism and unions aren't the same thing. You can have unions without socialism, and socialism without unions.
- onion2k 9y ago
  it's in the company's best interest to have people do as much as possible for as little as possible money. If you're in an industry where hiring costs are high (eg software) then it's often cheaper to keep staff happy than to recruit new ones. 'as little as possible money' is sometimes spending more now in order to save a larger sum of money you'd have to pay out on recruitment if someone left. That said, I strongly suspect this is not the case for delivery drivers.
geezerjay 9y ago
> but they sure know how to build a system where thats the only option. That's also how research/PhD programs work. Sure, you aren't forced to work like a slave and sure, you don't need to endure slave wages... But your supervisors and advisors tell you that's what it takes to get that competitive advantage in a very competitive field, and if you want to get ahead in life you need to have what it takes and be a team player...
bhouston 9y ago
There should be laws against creating a metric-based system that clearly causes people to work for less than minimum wage and to violate standard employment conditions (e.g. required breaks.) This type of gig is just a means to exploit poor people by one of the riches, most successful companies on the planet.

And the people making those incentives know it! They can't always legally tell an employee to do bad/illegal things, but they sure know how to build a system where thats the only option.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

Exactly, it's in the company's best interest to have people do as much as possible for as little as possible money. This is why we have worker rights, things like minimum wage and maximum working hours. As well as health coverage etc. Or should anyway. But nope, money first, people second.

59nadir 9y ago
Thanks, Ctulhu, for looking out for the common man. :) On-topic: Workers' rights have taken a backseat due to aggressive lobbying for several decades, not least in the US. Even in countries with very strong socialist foundations unions are hollowed out to the point where entire fields like IT feel like they have no use for them. Sweden is a good example: IT professionals are sought after to the point where they currently (rightly) feel like they have no use for unions, but when they turn out to be the new factory workers they won't have an already established base to unionize on. Maybe I'm silly to worry, but I feel like this is all a pretty big mistake.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Maybe that's because the Swedish unions did not historically unionize as much in the M&P area.
- zxd1098 9y ago
  Are you actually advocating for socialism on a site centered around VC-funded tech companies that absolutely couldn’t exist in a socialist country? Awesome.
  - taohansen 9y ago
    VC-backed companies do exist in socialist countries (i’m from Denmark). maybe it’s all time Hacker News readers did start arguing for socialism: self-obsession exists now in more abundance than ever and capitalism is doing everything it can to broaden the cloak of its dreadful shadow
    - zxd1098 9y ago
      I guess my point is, the socialist movement in the USA seems to favor things like taxing income over 1MM USD at 90ish percent. At that point, what would possibly be the point of risking a 1MM investment to only make 10% if the company doubled in value?
      - Saavedro 9y ago
        Our system is already structured in a way to incentivize actually reinvesting and doing stuff with that money instead of adding it to one's personal hoard -- think that but enough to actually be effective
  - EliRivers 9y ago
    Socialism and unions aren't the same thing. You can have unions without socialism, and socialism without unions.
onion2k 9y ago
it's in the company's best interest to have people do as much as possible for as little as possible money. If you're in an industry where hiring costs are high (eg software) then it's often cheaper to keep staff happy than to recruit new ones. 'as little as possible money' is sometimes spending more now in order to save a larger sum of money you'd have to pay out on recruitment if someone left. That said, I strongly suspect this is not the case for delivery drivers.

geezerjay 9y ago

> but they sure know how to build a system where thats the only option. That's also how research/PhD programs work. Sure, you aren't forced to work like a slave and sure, you don't need to endure slave wages... But your supervisors and advisors tell you that's what it takes to get that competitive advantage in a very competitive field, and if you want to get ahead in life you need to have what it takes and be a team player...

bhouston 9y ago

There should be laws against creating a metric-based system that clearly causes people to work for less than minimum wage and to violate standard employment conditions (e.g. required breaks.) This type of gig is just a means to exploit poor people by one of the riches, most successful companies on the planet.