7 ms·

I had a boss who stood up for me against sexist office jerks

150 points by curtis 9y ago

maruhan2 9y ago
Hmmmmm. This really doesn't seem much of a sexist problem to me. In my opinion, whether wanting to publish female pictures is sexist or not is very controversial. Sex sells, and attractive females gain more attention than attractive males. The issue was the intimidation, which is arguably not related to sexism. A man with an unpopular opinion could have gotten similar intimidation.
- lamlam 9y ago
  Well it doesn't have to be one or the other. It doesn't have to be either intimidation _or_ sexism. It can be both. She was being intimidated because she wasn't respected and seen as lesser. I'd say this part really ties in the sexism to the intimidation: >an article carefully placed on my desk. I can’t remember the exact details, but it was about an outspoken woman getting her comeuppance.
- scythe 9y ago
  It doesn't matter if she was wrong[1]. Nobody should be prevented from expressing a wrong opinion unless it's harmful to coworkers, and intimidation by coworkers is never appropriate. For example, practically nobody would have endorsed veiled threats by coworkers against James Damore. ([1] - Arguably she was. In studies, women enjoy seeing pictures of women far more than men enjoy seeing pictures of men. In fact, some studies show that (even (some) straight) women prefer pictures of women to pictures of men.)
  - yorwba 9y ago
    Could you link to some of the studies you refer to?
  - thunfischbrot 9y ago
    I read the article again. Your comment seems to assert that when she is arguing for a lower ratio of pictures of females in the coverage of the event, that she is "wrong" about it. I can only read the article that way if you assume that 1) the paper sold better because off that ratio and 2) whatever increases sales is ultimately the right thing to do. While I am not sure about 1) I am convinced that 2) is immoral, and will continue to lead to the discrimination against minorities.
    - scythe 9y ago
      I used "if she was wrong" as a way to say "even if everything you're saying is true, your conclusion does not follow from your premises". It's a counterfactual which I hoped would emphasize my rejection of the GP's argument specifically. I do think that she might be wrong, relative to a perspective where you want to increase sales, and while increasing sales at all costs is immoral, I don't think that any real moral achievements are made by "objectifying" men if it's not what readers want, because the whole point of objectification is giving readers what they want. What is immoral is the case where the perspectives of female readers are valued less than the perspectives of male readers in a publication which is supposedly for both men and women, but if, on average, men and women prefer pictures of women (which is my guess), taking advantage of that would not be immoral. However, it's also possible that the key assumption is false -- it mostly comes from a course in aesthetic psychology I took back in college, and my memory is a bit fuzzy.
- gumby 9y ago
  > Sex sells, and attractive females gain more attention than attractive males. Has this been demonstrated for different kinds of products in different contexts, for buyers of both sexes? Seems like a surprisingly broad assumption, though I am aware it is widely believed. I know it can sell toothpaste to men and women (e.g. "Close Up", though I don't know if that is still on the market). I know that sexy men and women sell fashion to men and women respectively. I know sexy outfits for some pop stars work well (and not for others). But do, say, pictures of bikinis sell speed boats to everyone, or just to straight men? "Star Trek" used a female voice for the Enterprise's computer because it "had been shown that people paid more attention to the female voice". The "people" who paid more attention were male fighter pilots in the 1960s.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    These are good questions, and the 'experimenter' bias of the old theory (sexy women sell, sexy men don't) is evident: In this case, the conclusion was made by generations of mostly male newsrooms, run by almost all-male editors, looking at the photos taken by male photographers, of an event probably run by men, in a culture (sports) long dominated by men. This group shockingly concluded that attractive females would be more appealing. It's a good example of why diverse groups are shown to produce better decisions. Some men might at times try to imagine what women prefer, and in male-run environments they might accommodate women when it's convenient and easy enough. Obviously, you will get different results if women speak for themselves, as normal, full participants, and if they have a seat at the table so that the implementation of their preferences isn't a matter of choice.
wasx 9y ago
Why has this disappeared from the front page?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- frandroid 9y ago
  It's back up there now, thankfully.
  - rectang 9y ago
    Gone again. The culture won't stand for it.
    - paul7986 9y ago
      What's up with the ability to flag posts here unless they are duplicates? Shouldn't admins only have the ability to flag a post for being inappropriate? This is being flagged off the front page because various Hacker Newsers are sexist. Isn't this a place for progress? Signed a dude!
    - davidcuddeback 9y ago
      It's kinda silly IMO that this keeps getting flagged. I vouched for it a few hours ago, which seemed to help get it back to the front page. You have more karma than I do, so you may be able to help too. If you haven't already, you can scroll to the top of the page and click the "vouch" link under the title.
      - rectang 9y ago
        I don't have the "vouch" link. It was probably taken away because I kept vouching for articles like this one.
davidbanham 9y ago
The way in which the issue was handled seems important to me. He didn't make a scene in front of the whole team, which could have been humiliating to the person who reported the intimidation. He dealt with it privately, and then returned later to notify the reporter that it had been done and what the outcome was. Thus preserving dignity for all involved while hopefully making a meaningful impact on the culture/behavior. As a man witnessing harassment I have felt paralysed by not knowing whether calling the behaviour out in the moment would make things worse. Whether my intervention would be appreciated or looked on by the woman as bullshit white-knighting. I think this anecdote lays out a more useful path that can be emulated.
- RangerScience 9y ago
  > not knowing whether calling the behaviour out in the moment would make things worse I too feel this. I currently try to find alternative solutions, although only one example is coming to mind: I saw a woman being very probably crowded by a guy on a dance floor, and it looked unwanted. I offered a hula hoop for her to play with: instant personal space bubble. (She took it, guy backed off and later left). I figure the goal is to disrupt the current poor behavior, rather than try to correct / call it out, given my skill levels. Legit / mutual behavior will resume, unwanted behavior (generally?) won't.
lgessler 9y ago
A friend of mine is a female PhD candidate in astrophysics, a predominantly male field. She entered graduate school expecting sexism and harassment, and unfortunately that expectation has in large part been borne out. However, one reason why she has been able to endure it is an effort on the part of male astrophysicists--many of them strangers--to intervene when they noticed she was being harassed. One example: while meeting a research group at a post-conference social, a postdoc 10 years her senior put his arm around her. Some turned a blind eye, others were mortified yet inert, but one man got up and asked the postdoc to switch seats with him. The outcome? My friend was spared having to spend her (already scarce) social capital on wiggling out of this dude's arm, some of her faith was restored in the men in her field (reducing the odds she'd eventually quit it entirely), the dude was sent a signal that his behavior was not okay, and the intervener lost nothing for his courage. For us males in male-dominated fields, it is critical that we be mindful of when the non-males we are interacting with are being discriminated against or harassed, and more importantly, that we do something when we notice it. It could be as dramatic as something in this article, or it could be as small as apologizing to the non-male coworker you spoke over or saying that you see the sense in a non-male coworker's idea when it seems like it might be getting criticized more for its creator's gender than its merits.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  I agree completely. I'll add: If you stand by while something bad happens, you are an accomplice. Your inaction communicates something important: This is ok; it's normal. Your normalize it, and human beings, social creatures that we are, are built to follow the crowd's norms. With a little courage, you can stop sexual harassment from being normalized and shift perception a little the other way. But also, I think men have to be conscious of not objectifying women as damsels in distress, waiting for you to ride to their rescue. If possible, the person should speak for herself - you don't know her or what she wants. Just ask, 'is there something I can do?' or 'you're welcome to join us at our table' or 'I'll be a witness if you need one'.
- leaveyou 9y ago
  >a postdoc 10 years her senior put his arm around her >My friend was spared having to spend her (already scarce) social capital on wiggling out of this dude's arm Is it really that difficult and "costly" for the woman in this situation to get herself out of this like a grownup ? Just saying politely "hmm, I think there is a misunderstanding.." while she gets up and changes place herself ? A message like that is clear and polite and establishes clear boundaries. I think it's ridiculous and weird to ask all the males to be aware of the relationship dynamics of their female colleagues and anticipate at which point they feel harassed and intervene. Seriously.. and what's next ? Women intervening when other women flirt with a male colleague ?
paul7986 9y ago
I stood up for a female colleague against inappropriate, aggressive and scary behavior from her manager. Nothing was done about it... our reporting the incident fell on deaf ears. Though not long after I reported it I started to be harassed and worse. I ultimately separated myself from that company because the harassment/bullying increased daily. Though I'm facing hardships now yet I'm not sorry I did it because I want to work in a healthier work environment. Though it was a very well paying job, I REALLY enjoyed the work and I was often told how much many co-workers/stakeholders liked my work.
bandono 9y ago
I went to work for a company several years ago that had an all-male tech team of 15 people or so, and a brotastic atmosphere that surely would have qualified as hostile work environment in court. I was able to persuade key personnel that it was in the interest of the company and therefore in their interest to rectify the situation. Three years later, the tech team was one-third female and the atmosphere was for the most part cleaned up. This success story required difficult diplomacy and tenacity, and I'm not sure it was realistic to duplicate it. I often read Hacker News and despair. My teammates were redeemable, at great cost. Probably many people here would be too, but the hostility is just so strong. Instead, I believe it will be a generational change, where the situation improves as bad elements age out and die off over decades.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  IMHO, HN itself has change dramatically over the last couple of years. Most of the comments in this discussion are very positive. Change does happen: Look at the massive shift recently in the U.S. on gay marriage or, in earlier times, interracial marriage.
paul7986 9y ago
Why was this flagged?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- gspetr 9y ago
  It's at odds with HN's submission guidelines.
cyphunk 9y ago
Hackernews should change the "flag" button to "wounds my masculinity". After years of using hckrnews.com which shows flagged posts, I think 90% of flagged front-page posts are about harrasment and gender issues often in the tech field.

150 points by curtis 9y ago

Hmmmmm. This really doesn't seem much of a sexist problem to me. In my opinion, whether wanting to publish female pictures is sexist or not is very controversial. Sex sells, and attractive females gain more attention than attractive males. The issue was the intimidation, which is arguably not related to sexism. A man with an unpopular opinion could have gotten similar intimidation.

lamlam 9y ago
Well it doesn't have to be one or the other. It doesn't have to be either intimidation _or_ sexism. It can be both. She was being intimidated because she wasn't respected and seen as lesser. I'd say this part really ties in the sexism to the intimidation: >an article carefully placed on my desk. I can’t remember the exact details, but it was about an outspoken woman getting her comeuppance.
scythe 9y ago
It doesn't matter if she was wrong[1]. Nobody should be prevented from expressing a wrong opinion unless it's harmful to coworkers, and intimidation by coworkers is never appropriate. For example, practically nobody would have endorsed veiled threats by coworkers against James Damore. ([1] - Arguably she was. In studies, women enjoy seeing pictures of women far more than men enjoy seeing pictures of men. In fact, some studies show that (even (some) straight) women prefer pictures of women to pictures of men.)
- yorwba 9y ago
  Could you link to some of the studies you refer to?
- thunfischbrot 9y ago
  I read the article again. Your comment seems to assert that when she is arguing for a lower ratio of pictures of females in the coverage of the event, that she is "wrong" about it. I can only read the article that way if you assume that 1) the paper sold better because off that ratio and 2) whatever increases sales is ultimately the right thing to do. While I am not sure about 1) I am convinced that 2) is immoral, and will continue to lead to the discrimination against minorities.
  - scythe 9y ago
    I used "if she was wrong" as a way to say "even if everything you're saying is true, your conclusion does not follow from your premises". It's a counterfactual which I hoped would emphasize my rejection of the GP's argument specifically. I do think that she might be wrong, relative to a perspective where you want to increase sales, and while increasing sales at all costs is immoral, I don't think that any real moral achievements are made by "objectifying" men if it's not what readers want, because the whole point of objectification is giving readers what they want. What is immoral is the case where the perspectives of female readers are valued less than the perspectives of male readers in a publication which is supposedly for both men and women, but if, on average, men and women prefer pictures of women (which is my guess), taking advantage of that would not be immoral. However, it's also possible that the key assumption is false -- it mostly comes from a course in aesthetic psychology I took back in college, and my memory is a bit fuzzy.
gumby 9y ago
> Sex sells, and attractive females gain more attention than attractive males. Has this been demonstrated for different kinds of products in different contexts, for buyers of both sexes? Seems like a surprisingly broad assumption, though I am aware it is widely believed. I know it can sell toothpaste to men and women (e.g. "Close Up", though I don't know if that is still on the market). I know that sexy men and women sell fashion to men and women respectively. I know sexy outfits for some pop stars work well (and not for others). But do, say, pictures of bikinis sell speed boats to everyone, or just to straight men? "Star Trek" used a female voice for the Enterprise's computer because it "had been shown that people paid more attention to the female voice". The "people" who paid more attention were male fighter pilots in the 1960s.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  These are good questions, and the 'experimenter' bias of the old theory (sexy women sell, sexy men don't) is evident: In this case, the conclusion was made by generations of mostly male newsrooms, run by almost all-male editors, looking at the photos taken by male photographers, of an event probably run by men, in a culture (sports) long dominated by men. This group shockingly concluded that attractive females would be more appealing. It's a good example of why diverse groups are shown to produce better decisions. Some men might at times try to imagine what women prefer, and in male-run environments they might accommodate women when it's convenient and easy enough. Obviously, you will get different results if women speak for themselves, as normal, full participants, and if they have a seat at the table so that the implementation of their preferences isn't a matter of choice.

wasx 9y ago

Why has this disappeared from the front page?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
frandroid 9y ago
It's back up there now, thankfully.
- rectang 9y ago
  Gone again. The culture won't stand for it.
  - paul7986 9y ago
    What's up with the ability to flag posts here unless they are duplicates? Shouldn't admins only have the ability to flag a post for being inappropriate? This is being flagged off the front page because various Hacker Newsers are sexist. Isn't this a place for progress? Signed a dude!
  - davidcuddeback 9y ago
    It's kinda silly IMO that this keeps getting flagged. I vouched for it a few hours ago, which seemed to help get it back to the front page. You have more karma than I do, so you may be able to help too. If you haven't already, you can scroll to the top of the page and click the "vouch" link under the title.
    - rectang 9y ago
      I don't have the "vouch" link. It was probably taken away because I kept vouching for articles like this one.

davidbanham 9y ago

The way in which the issue was handled seems important to me. He didn't make a scene in front of the whole team, which could have been humiliating to the person who reported the intimidation. He dealt with it privately, and then returned later to notify the reporter that it had been done and what the outcome was. Thus preserving dignity for all involved while hopefully making a meaningful impact on the culture/behavior. As a man witnessing harassment I have felt paralysed by not knowing whether calling the behaviour out in the moment would make things worse. Whether my intervention would be appreciated or looked on by the woman as bullshit white-knighting. I think this anecdote lays out a more useful path that can be emulated.

RangerScience 9y ago
> not knowing whether calling the behaviour out in the moment would make things worse I too feel this. I currently try to find alternative solutions, although only one example is coming to mind: I saw a woman being very probably crowded by a guy on a dance floor, and it looked unwanted. I offered a hula hoop for her to play with: instant personal space bubble. (She took it, guy backed off and later left). I figure the goal is to disrupt the current poor behavior, rather than try to correct / call it out, given my skill levels. Legit / mutual behavior will resume, unwanted behavior (generally?) won't.

lgessler 9y ago

A friend of mine is a female PhD candidate in astrophysics, a predominantly male field. She entered graduate school expecting sexism and harassment, and unfortunately that expectation has in large part been borne out. However, one reason why she has been able to endure it is an effort on the part of male astrophysicists--many of them strangers--to intervene when they noticed she was being harassed. One example: while meeting a research group at a post-conference social, a postdoc 10 years her senior put his arm around her. Some turned a blind eye, others were mortified yet inert, but one man got up and asked the postdoc to switch seats with him. The outcome? My friend was spared having to spend her (already scarce) social capital on wiggling out of this dude's arm, some of her faith was restored in the men in her field (reducing the odds she'd eventually quit it entirely), the dude was sent a signal that his behavior was not okay, and the intervener lost nothing for his courage. For us males in male-dominated fields, it is critical that we be mindful of when the non-males we are interacting with are being discriminated against or harassed, and more importantly, that we do something when we notice it. It could be as dramatic as something in this article, or it could be as small as apologizing to the non-male coworker you spoke over or saying that you see the sense in a non-male coworker's idea when it seems like it might be getting criticized more for its creator's gender than its merits.

forapurpose 9y ago
I agree completely. I'll add: If you stand by while something bad happens, you are an accomplice. Your inaction communicates something important: This is ok; it's normal. Your normalize it, and human beings, social creatures that we are, are built to follow the crowd's norms. With a little courage, you can stop sexual harassment from being normalized and shift perception a little the other way. But also, I think men have to be conscious of not objectifying women as damsels in distress, waiting for you to ride to their rescue. If possible, the person should speak for herself - you don't know her or what she wants. Just ask, 'is there something I can do?' or 'you're welcome to join us at our table' or 'I'll be a witness if you need one'.
leaveyou 9y ago
>a postdoc 10 years her senior put his arm around her >My friend was spared having to spend her (already scarce) social capital on wiggling out of this dude's arm Is it really that difficult and "costly" for the woman in this situation to get herself out of this like a grownup ? Just saying politely "hmm, I think there is a misunderstanding.." while she gets up and changes place herself ? A message like that is clear and polite and establishes clear boundaries. I think it's ridiculous and weird to ask all the males to be aware of the relationship dynamics of their female colleagues and anticipate at which point they feel harassed and intervene. Seriously.. and what's next ? Women intervening when other women flirt with a male colleague ?

paul7986 9y ago

I stood up for a female colleague against inappropriate, aggressive and scary behavior from her manager. Nothing was done about it... our reporting the incident fell on deaf ears. Though not long after I reported it I started to be harassed and worse. I ultimately separated myself from that company because the harassment/bullying increased daily. Though I'm facing hardships now yet I'm not sorry I did it because I want to work in a healthier work environment. Though it was a very well paying job, I REALLY enjoyed the work and I was often told how much many co-workers/stakeholders liked my work.

bandono 9y ago

I went to work for a company several years ago that had an all-male tech team of 15 people or so, and a brotastic atmosphere that surely would have qualified as hostile work environment in court. I was able to persuade key personnel that it was in the interest of the company and therefore in their interest to rectify the situation. Three years later, the tech team was one-third female and the atmosphere was for the most part cleaned up. This success story required difficult diplomacy and tenacity, and I'm not sure it was realistic to duplicate it. I often read Hacker News and despair. My teammates were redeemable, at great cost. Probably many people here would be too, but the hostility is just so strong. Instead, I believe it will be a generational change, where the situation improves as bad elements age out and die off over decades.

forapurpose 9y ago
IMHO, HN itself has change dramatically over the last couple of years. Most of the comments in this discussion are very positive. Change does happen: Look at the massive shift recently in the U.S. on gay marriage or, in earlier times, interracial marriage.

paul7986 9y ago

Why was this flagged?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
gspetr 9y ago
It's at odds with HN's submission guidelines.

cyphunk 9y ago

Hackernews should change the "flag" button to "wounds my masculinity". After years of using hckrnews.com which shows flagged posts, I think 90% of flagged front-page posts are about harrasment and gender issues often in the tech field.