4 ms·

Either your math or investigative skills are impressive. > your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. How so? I mean - you've got me pegged, b

by ci5er 9y ago

Either your math or investigative skills are impressive. > your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. How so? I mean - you've got me pegged, but why is it unusual? > that part of those expectations was rooted in imperialism. Does that follow?

eesmith 9y ago
It was unusual because of the relatively high number of women who entered computing in the 1980s. Or are you asking me why the 1980s was different than the 10 years before and after? For that I can only at best conjecture. Traditionally, mathematically inclined women studied mathematics, with thoughts to being a math teacher. Grace Hopper got her PhD in math and taught mathematics at Vasser, for example. Katherine G. Johnson, of "Hidden Figures" fame, first started as a teacher before becoming a research mathematician. Traditionally, businessmen had women working as secretaries, and it was the women who learned to type. Two of the many exceptions include newspaper writers and army clerks, but in general typing was feminizing. That's why many of the first women in computing came from a math background, and did the typing=programming work. (Going back to your original comment, it really was seen that programming was little different than typing. Do you remember Simonyi's meta-programming concept, which he tried to implement at Microsoft? Wikipedia quotes Cringely "the metaprogrammer was the designer, decision maker, and communication controller in a software development group.... individual progammers were allowed to make no design decisions about the project. All they did was write the code as described by the metaprogrammer.... A programmer with a problem or a question would take it to the metaprogrammer, who could come up with an answer or transfer the question to another programmer..." This sort of programmer is little more than a typist, and I think in the 1970s many people thought that an analyst could figure out the grand plan, drawn up with architecture-like flow charts, at which point it became little more than a typing project to convert it into software.) The 1960s and 1970s was the big struggle for woman's rights; in the workplace, in the home, and in general. By the 1980s it was socially acceptable for women to have a career. (As compared to going to college to get an M.R.S. degree - an old phrase I didn't learn until about 10 years ago.) But still in an era when using a keyboard was generally considered secretarial work, and hence woman's work, so not as attractive to men. It was also just at the start of the microcomputer era, so men and women graduating with a CS degree in 1985 were unlikely to have used a computer at all before going to college. While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. As one example, girls are supposed to be social, while it's okay for boys to be in their computers for hours. Honestly though, there's a lot on that topic, and I can't begin to do it justice. I just wanted to explain enough so you might get a sense that your cohort might not be representative. As for "imperialism", I didn't really understand Hicks' argument from interview I linked to. I assume I would need to read the book to understand.
- ci5er 9y ago
  > your cohort might not be representative Hmmm. Thank you. I will think on this and do some research on this.
- ci5er 9y ago
  > While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. How so?
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I gave an example. Are you asking for more? While I've read a few papers on the topic, this is not a subject I know well enough to even remember what those papers were. Instead, I can point you do a Google Scholar search, for "gender stereotype microcomputer". The first with a free PDF link is http://education.msu.edu/cepse/mqm/documents/MQMPrelimArticleFS03.pdf http://education.msu.edu/cepse/mqm/documents/MQMPrelimArticl... . It has a two page review of the literature, with more examples. I used "microcomputer" in the search, which will mostly return hits from the 1980s and 1990s. That paper was from 1997. A search for "gender differences computer programming", limited to the last few years, found https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323745/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323745/ from 2015: "However, it is clear from a large body of scientific research that there are significant social barriers to women’s entry into computer science and engineering that preclude women from being able to make a truly “free” choice (Ceci et al., 2009). Here we analyze those barriers and what can be done about them."
    - ci5er 9y ago
      Thanks!

by ci5er 9y ago

eesmith 9y ago

It was unusual because of the relatively high number of women who entered computing in the 1980s. Or are you asking me why the 1980s was different than the 10 years before and after? For that I can only at best conjecture. Traditionally, mathematically inclined women studied mathematics, with thoughts to being a math teacher. Grace Hopper got her PhD in math and taught mathematics at Vasser, for example. Katherine G. Johnson, of "Hidden Figures" fame, first started as a teacher before becoming a research mathematician. Traditionally, businessmen had women working as secretaries, and it was the women who learned to type. Two of the many exceptions include newspaper writers and army clerks, but in general typing was feminizing. That's why many of the first women in computing came from a math background, and did the typing=programming work. (Going back to your original comment, it really was seen that programming was little different than typing. Do you remember Simonyi's meta-programming concept, which he tried to implement at Microsoft? Wikipedia quotes Cringely "the metaprogrammer was the designer, decision maker, and communication controller in a software development group.... individual progammers were allowed to make no design decisions about the project. All they did was write the code as described by the metaprogrammer.... A programmer with a problem or a question would take it to the metaprogrammer, who could come up with an answer or transfer the question to another programmer..." This sort of programmer is little more than a typist, and I think in the 1970s many people thought that an analyst could figure out the grand plan, drawn up with architecture-like flow charts, at which point it became little more than a typing project to convert it into software.) The 1960s and 1970s was the big struggle for woman's rights; in the workplace, in the home, and in general. By the 1980s it was socially acceptable for women to have a career. (As compared to going to college to get an M.R.S. degree - an old phrase I didn't learn until about 10 years ago.) But still in an era when using a keyboard was generally considered secretarial work, and hence woman's work, so not as attractive to men. It was also just at the start of the microcomputer era, so men and women graduating with a CS degree in 1985 were unlikely to have used a computer at all before going to college. While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. As one example, girls are supposed to be social, while it's okay for boys to be in their computers for hours. Honestly though, there's a lot on that topic, and I can't begin to do it justice. I just wanted to explain enough so you might get a sense that your cohort might not be representative. As for "imperialism", I didn't really understand Hicks' argument from interview I linked to. I assume I would need to read the book to understand.

ci5er 9y ago
> your cohort might not be representative Hmmm. Thank you. I will think on this and do some research on this.
ci5er 9y ago
> While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. How so?
- eesmith 9y ago
  I gave an example. Are you asking for more? While I've read a few papers on the topic, this is not a subject I know well enough to even remember what those papers were. Instead, I can point you do a Google Scholar search, for "gender stereotype microcomputer". The first with a free PDF link is http://education.msu.edu/cepse/mqm/documents/MQMPrelimArticleFS03.pdf http://education.msu.edu/cepse/mqm/documents/MQMPrelimArticl... . It has a two page review of the literature, with more examples. I used "microcomputer" in the search, which will mostly return hits from the 1980s and 1990s. That paper was from 1997. A search for "gender differences computer programming", limited to the last few years, found https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323745/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323745/ from 2015: "However, it is clear from a large body of scientific research that there are significant social barriers to women’s entry into computer science and engineering that preclude women from being able to make a truly “free” choice (Ceci et al., 2009). Here we analyze those barriers and what can be done about them."
  - ci5er 9y ago
    Thanks!