6 ms·

It is a pleasantly polite (but unarmed) society, and one of the most foreign for an American to visit even though parts of it (cars, shops, buildings) may look

by kurthr 9y ago

It is a pleasantly polite (but unarmed) society, and one of the most foreign for an American to visit even though parts of it (cars, shops, buildings) may look the same. The dichotomy between the surface familiarity and utter cultural (and language) difference is what makes it so wonderfully bizarre! Since I know people who work in the hospitality industry I don't romanticize it, but it's not a horror either. There are crazy places like tourist Roppongi and other red-light districts, but it is still really safe even in the least well of parts of town (so much better than sketchy parts of LA/NY). It's also changing. I only really started regularly seeing random (not artistic) graffiti around 2010... and that's after visiting for almost 20 years. Certainly, I've known about poverty in Japan (mostly seen in Tokyo) since the late 90s and 2000s bust. The late 80s boom/bust priced a lot of people out of housing and they've been slowly cut out of the workforce as well. The kids really started changing in the 90s and by the 2000s a lot of the creatives were wearing t-shirts and tennies to work, which was a huge change (although some traditional places still wear uniforms today). They've (as a cohort) changed some of the norms of work and life (not getting married or having kids!), but have also hidden themselves in weird little sub-cultures (anime, videogames, shopping, karoshi). I should know what's going on in Japanese social media, but I really don't. Anyone have comments on that? It can't be as weird and twisted as Korea.

mc32 9y ago
I think the homeless thing was precipitated by the Hanshin EQ and exacerbated by the economy --the EQ displaced thousands of people into tent quarters along riversides, etc., and that never went away. Before the Hanshin, homelessness wasn't very visible thought it existed. The response to that disaster was very poor and unprepared.
_nalply 9y ago
I googled Karoshi, isn't it death by overworking? Or is it used for a weird game (Karoshi Suicide Salaryman)? I am confused.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  No, you're correct, karoshi 過労死 means "death by overwork."
dba7dba 9y ago
What makes you think Korea is more weird and twisted than Japan?
- kurthr 9y ago
  I only know of it through friends. I don't consider myself fluent in either the language or the culture, but especially in highschool social media seems extremely dark and darwinian. Abusive behavior from their description seems fairly common place and suicides are not uncommon. Highschool is very socially important throughout your working career in Korea (like undergraduate college is in the US). As a result of these pressures secret groups and cliques form in highschool which hack/troll/threaten other groups and apparently continue on for years afterward. I don't claim to understand and maybe it's just some of the high-pressure "elite" schools, but the commentary didn't make it seem rare. Personally, I think the psychological pressure of a very military mindset (spying is a normal part of both social and business experience) and having the threat of the North just beyond the DMZ outside of Seoul is part of it... along with the pressure parents put on their kids to succeed. Watch some Korean films and you will see in it a self image that to this American feels darker and more disturbing than similarly bizarre things that happen in Japan (think more on the GangLife/Neo-Nazi side of the US, but better educated).
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    At the risk of denying the particulars, I don't think there is any country where you can't find lurid stories of high school social media bullying leading to suicide.
    - kurthr 9y ago
      Although I agree with you in general, please watch Korean cinema (not the extremely popular Dramas) and try working with/for a Korean company for a few years. I think you will find that what I am describing is not typical of any other country with as large a GDP... perhaps Russia, but I don't have any personal knowledge of that.
aikinai 9y ago
I'm not familiar with Korea, but I don't think there's anything particularly weird about Japanese social media. The obsession with privacy is eroding over time, but still relatively strong. Mixi basically died and was replaced with a combination of LINE, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Facebook is popular in some circles, but not nearly as active as in the US. It's almost closer to LinkedIn, like your professional face (even if not strictly about business like LinkedIn). People often have multiple Twitter accounts for different purposes and it's incredibly popular. Maybe the only country where Twitter's still growing? Instagram use is basically the same as the US I'd say. It's helped erode the privacy obsession, with more people posting selfies and such. And LINE is the juggernaut being the primary social graph of Japan. It's the default for one-to-one and group chats, and some people use the other features like the wall-like feature, shared albums, etc.
- selimthegrim 9y ago
  I really like LINE and wanted to use it but the only person I knew who used it was my Mongolian coworker (I lived in Portland at the time) - everyone else looked at me like I was nuts when I tried to talk it up.
  - kurthr 9y ago
    Yes... LINE is the communication protocol in Japan and some of Taiwan. I found the use of much more involved emoticons/stickers interesting. Outside of that WeChat is absolutely critical in China and everyone who needs to work with China. However, not having a bank account in China makes using many of the Wechat capabilities impossible.
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  Something annoying about Facebook in Japan is that a lot of people use it for work related relationships. At the beginning it was a bit inconvenient for me because I use it mainly to communicate with family and friends, but I solved this problem by opening a secondary account where I add all the people that I don't want to have access to my private life.
emodendroket 9y ago
> The kids really started changing in the 90s and by the 2000s a lot of the creatives were wearing t-shirts and tennies to work, which was a huge change (although some traditional places still wear uniforms today). They've (as a cohort) changed some of the norms of work and life (not getting married or having kids!), but have also hidden themselves in weird little sub-cultures (anime, videogames, shopping, karoshi). Part of the reason that people stay in subcultures much longer is the payoff to adapting a straitlaced image and seeking work as a salaryman just isn't there anymore. Also a major reason people aren't starting families.

by kurthr 9y ago

mc32 9y ago

I think the homeless thing was precipitated by the Hanshin EQ and exacerbated by the economy --the EQ displaced thousands of people into tent quarters along riversides, etc., and that never went away. Before the Hanshin, homelessness wasn't very visible thought it existed. The response to that disaster was very poor and unprepared.

_nalply 9y ago

I googled Karoshi, isn't it death by overworking? Or is it used for a weird game (Karoshi Suicide Salaryman)? I am confused.

emodendroket 9y ago
No, you're correct, karoshi 過労死 means "death by overwork."

dba7dba 9y ago

What makes you think Korea is more weird and twisted than Japan?

kurthr 9y ago
I only know of it through friends. I don't consider myself fluent in either the language or the culture, but especially in highschool social media seems extremely dark and darwinian. Abusive behavior from their description seems fairly common place and suicides are not uncommon. Highschool is very socially important throughout your working career in Korea (like undergraduate college is in the US). As a result of these pressures secret groups and cliques form in highschool which hack/troll/threaten other groups and apparently continue on for years afterward. I don't claim to understand and maybe it's just some of the high-pressure "elite" schools, but the commentary didn't make it seem rare. Personally, I think the psychological pressure of a very military mindset (spying is a normal part of both social and business experience) and having the threat of the North just beyond the DMZ outside of Seoul is part of it... along with the pressure parents put on their kids to succeed. Watch some Korean films and you will see in it a self image that to this American feels darker and more disturbing than similarly bizarre things that happen in Japan (think more on the GangLife/Neo-Nazi side of the US, but better educated).
- emodendroket 9y ago
  At the risk of denying the particulars, I don't think there is any country where you can't find lurid stories of high school social media bullying leading to suicide.
  - kurthr 9y ago
    Although I agree with you in general, please watch Korean cinema (not the extremely popular Dramas) and try working with/for a Korean company for a few years. I think you will find that what I am describing is not typical of any other country with as large a GDP... perhaps Russia, but I don't have any personal knowledge of that.

aikinai 9y ago

I'm not familiar with Korea, but I don't think there's anything particularly weird about Japanese social media. The obsession with privacy is eroding over time, but still relatively strong. Mixi basically died and was replaced with a combination of LINE, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Facebook is popular in some circles, but not nearly as active as in the US. It's almost closer to LinkedIn, like your professional face (even if not strictly about business like LinkedIn). People often have multiple Twitter accounts for different purposes and it's incredibly popular. Maybe the only country where Twitter's still growing? Instagram use is basically the same as the US I'd say. It's helped erode the privacy obsession, with more people posting selfies and such. And LINE is the juggernaut being the primary social graph of Japan. It's the default for one-to-one and group chats, and some people use the other features like the wall-like feature, shared albums, etc.

selimthegrim 9y ago
I really like LINE and wanted to use it but the only person I knew who used it was my Mongolian coworker (I lived in Portland at the time) - everyone else looked at me like I was nuts when I tried to talk it up.
- kurthr 9y ago
  Yes... LINE is the communication protocol in Japan and some of Taiwan. I found the use of much more involved emoticons/stickers interesting. Outside of that WeChat is absolutely critical in China and everyone who needs to work with China. However, not having a bank account in China makes using many of the Wechat capabilities impossible.
6t6t6t6 9y ago
Something annoying about Facebook in Japan is that a lot of people use it for work related relationships. At the beginning it was a bit inconvenient for me because I use it mainly to communicate with family and friends, but I solved this problem by opening a secondary account where I add all the people that I don't want to have access to my private life.

emodendroket 9y ago

> The kids really started changing in the 90s and by the 2000s a lot of the creatives were wearing t-shirts and tennies to work, which was a huge change (although some traditional places still wear uniforms today). They've (as a cohort) changed some of the norms of work and life (not getting married or having kids!), but have also hidden themselves in weird little sub-cultures (anime, videogames, shopping, karoshi). Part of the reason that people stay in subcultures much longer is the payoff to adapting a straitlaced image and seeking work as a salaryman just isn't there anymore. Also a major reason people aren't starting families.