9 ms·

Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans? Pretty much everything I hear about Japan - whether it be news, or talking to Japane

by s4vi0r 9y ago

Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans? Pretty much everything I hear about Japan - whether it be news, or talking to Japanese friends - makes it seem like the country isn't doing so hot as far as the top 10 or 15 countries in the world go. Authoritarian government with poor freedom of press, social and mental health issues out the wazoo, aging population combined with xenophobia/refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration, poor gender equality, salaryman issues, etc. It feels like they peaked in the early to mid 90s and have just sorta been stumbling around since then.

mc32 9y ago
The whole world is heading toward zero pop growth or declining growth. We're projected to peak by about 2050. We'll all be there (with some exceptions). The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. There is no reason a Japan of 70 million should not be a viable society. It's still one of the densest countries on earth, given their usable land --it's mostly unusable, non arable mountainous.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  > The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths.
  - mc32 9y ago
    That happens to be the easy answer, but it's not necessarily the only answer. What happens when China enters pop decline? Pump more people into an already overpopulated country --that does not scale. Or when that hits India?
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      In what sense is China "overpopulated"? They have a large population but they also have a tremendous land mass, much of which is only sparsely populated.
      - mc32 9y ago
        Most of the west of the country is not arable at all. Like Japan, they are relatively poor in terms of arable land. As people become wealthier, they consume more resources and want bigger houses --taking up more resources, including land (suburbanization). So even while suburbanization of China will be much more muted than in western countries, there is still a demand and expansion into previously arable lands.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        There is no particular reason to think American post-war suburbanization is the natural way things would roll out, given that it is a result of specific policies and cultural tastes. And what's more, it's hard to see why people have to live in arable land in a world where no country produces all of the food it consumes.
        mc32 9y ago
        Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. If you ever travelled there you'd know farmland is being developed into housing. I'm sure you can do your own searches and verify[1]. [1]http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.205 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.20...
        jackvalentine 9y ago
        > Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. Considering the cultural context of HN and the phrasing of your post I consider that a fair inference.
    - 9y ago
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    "Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths." No - this is false. There's nothing to 'figure out'. We simply don't need as many people. We'll have to deal with it a some point in the future, but there is no imperative for America to keep adding more people willy nilly. The 'we must add bodies' ideal is just an extension of national corporatism.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Besides elder care and pensions we also live under an economic system predicated on endless growth.
      - alexasmyths 9y ago
        "we also live under an economic system predicated on endless growth." Yes, but it does not have to be this way. It's just the way it's designed for now.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Of all the reasons you might seek a post-capitalist economic order "maintaining ethnic homogeneity" is among the least compelling to me.
        alexasmyths 9y ago
        That's great. I suggest it's probably not a huge factor for most people. But there's a huge amount of information embedded into culture - ideas, mannerisms, forms of education, language, social strata - it goes far, far beyond 'language and cuisine'. Large scale immigration wipes that out and does not replace it with a new culture, rather, a 'globalized' set of values - and a Starbucks on every corner. So in the interests of having actual 'diversity' on planet earth, because as of today we are witnessing an 'extinction event' of culture, we might want to consider the impact of some of our policies. Immigrants (and FYI I've been an immigrant at stages of my own life) are mostly just regular people, and so we don't want to play into the hands of xenophobes or 'racial purists' or whatever, but at the same time, we have to recognize the imperative of culture itself. Is all.
mcguire 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=...
alexasmyths 9y ago
"Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans?" Are you kidding? Extremely low crime rates? Exceptional innovation, powerhouse industry, dozens of cultural imperatives, engineering marvels? It's one of the most civilized places in the world. Not easy. "refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration" And why would Japan turning into Brazil or America be a good thing? Why do so many people think that it's a cultural imperative to wipe out one's culture and join the globalized morass of cultureless consumers, killing themselves over the latest Nike's and deriving their identity via their smartphone brand of choice? Constantly warring over what historic culture owns what neighbourhood? What constitutes progress? No thanks. What you might consider to be 'authoritarian' - they might consider to be 'social cohesion'. Whereas you want to 'do whatever you want' they might consider 'one's responsibility towards society' as a more important social function. And FYI they don't have 'social issues' out the wazoo - the opposite. Mental health - it's an issue that is still considered taboo, moreover, with an aging population, amply problematic, no place is perfect.

by s4vi0r 9y ago

mc32 9y ago

The whole world is heading toward zero pop growth or declining growth. We're projected to peak by about 2050. We'll all be there (with some exceptions). The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. There is no reason a Japan of 70 million should not be a viable society. It's still one of the densest countries on earth, given their usable land --it's mostly unusable, non arable mountainous.

emodendroket 9y ago
> The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths.
- mc32 9y ago
  That happens to be the easy answer, but it's not necessarily the only answer. What happens when China enters pop decline? Pump more people into an already overpopulated country --that does not scale. Or when that hits India?
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    In what sense is China "overpopulated"? They have a large population but they also have a tremendous land mass, much of which is only sparsely populated.
    - mc32 9y ago
      Most of the west of the country is not arable at all. Like Japan, they are relatively poor in terms of arable land. As people become wealthier, they consume more resources and want bigger houses --taking up more resources, including land (suburbanization). So even while suburbanization of China will be much more muted than in western countries, there is still a demand and expansion into previously arable lands.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        There is no particular reason to think American post-war suburbanization is the natural way things would roll out, given that it is a result of specific policies and cultural tastes. And what's more, it's hard to see why people have to live in arable land in a world where no country produces all of the food it consumes.
        mc32 9y ago
        Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. If you ever travelled there you'd know farmland is being developed into housing. I'm sure you can do your own searches and verify[1]. [1]http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.205 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.20...
        jackvalentine 9y ago
        > Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. Considering the cultural context of HN and the phrasing of your post I consider that a fair inference.
  - 9y ago
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths." No - this is false. There's nothing to 'figure out'. We simply don't need as many people. We'll have to deal with it a some point in the future, but there is no imperative for America to keep adding more people willy nilly. The 'we must add bodies' ideal is just an extension of national corporatism.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Besides elder care and pensions we also live under an economic system predicated on endless growth.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      "we also live under an economic system predicated on endless growth." Yes, but it does not have to be this way. It's just the way it's designed for now.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Of all the reasons you might seek a post-capitalist economic order "maintaining ethnic homogeneity" is among the least compelling to me.
        alexasmyths 9y ago
        That's great. I suggest it's probably not a huge factor for most people. But there's a huge amount of information embedded into culture - ideas, mannerisms, forms of education, language, social strata - it goes far, far beyond 'language and cuisine'. Large scale immigration wipes that out and does not replace it with a new culture, rather, a 'globalized' set of values - and a Starbucks on every corner. So in the interests of having actual 'diversity' on planet earth, because as of today we are witnessing an 'extinction event' of culture, we might want to consider the impact of some of our policies. Immigrants (and FYI I've been an immigrant at stages of my own life) are mostly just regular people, and so we don't want to play into the hands of xenophobes or 'racial purists' or whatever, but at the same time, we have to recognize the imperative of culture itself. Is all.

mcguire 9y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=...

alexasmyths 9y ago

"Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans?" Are you kidding? Extremely low crime rates? Exceptional innovation, powerhouse industry, dozens of cultural imperatives, engineering marvels? It's one of the most civilized places in the world. Not easy. "refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration" And why would Japan turning into Brazil or America be a good thing? Why do so many people think that it's a cultural imperative to wipe out one's culture and join the globalized morass of cultureless consumers, killing themselves over the latest Nike's and deriving their identity via their smartphone brand of choice? Constantly warring over what historic culture owns what neighbourhood? What constitutes progress? No thanks. What you might consider to be 'authoritarian' - they might consider to be 'social cohesion'. Whereas you want to 'do whatever you want' they might consider 'one's responsibility towards society' as a more important social function. And FYI they don't have 'social issues' out the wazoo - the opposite. Mental health - it's an issue that is still considered taboo, moreover, with an aging population, amply problematic, no place is perfect.