7 ms·

I've lived in Japan, and I love Japan for all its charms. Westerners definitely romanticize it, but day-to-day life for local people isn't all roses. Something

by g09980 9y ago

I've lived in Japan, and I love Japan for all its charms. Westerners definitely romanticize it, but day-to-day life for local people isn't all roses. Something brings one to reality when you see raggedy old men vomiting outside Pachinko parlours, the scantily clad "massage" women shivering in zero degree weather, or the mentally ill muttering to himself while bumping into the walls at the conbini. Aging population, high rate of alcoholism, difficult work culture, and untreated mental illness are some things you don't see on a postcard, but they are real.

s4vi0r 9y ago
Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans? Pretty much everything I hear about Japan - whether it be news, or talking to Japanese friends - makes it seem like the country isn't doing so hot as far as the top 10 or 15 countries in the world go. Authoritarian government with poor freedom of press, social and mental health issues out the wazoo, aging population combined with xenophobia/refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration, poor gender equality, salaryman issues, etc. It feels like they peaked in the early to mid 90s and have just sorta been stumbling around since then.
- mc32 9y ago
  The whole world is heading toward zero pop growth or declining growth. We're projected to peak by about 2050. We'll all be there (with some exceptions). The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. There is no reason a Japan of 70 million should not be a viable society. It's still one of the densest countries on earth, given their usable land --it's mostly unusable, non arable mountainous.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    > The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths.
    - mc32 9y ago
      That happens to be the easy answer, but it's not necessarily the only answer. What happens when China enters pop decline? Pump more people into an already overpopulated country --that does not scale. Or when that hits India?
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        In what sense is China "overpopulated"? They have a large population but they also have a tremendous land mass, much of which is only sparsely populated.
        mc32 9y ago
        Most of the west of the country is not arable at all. Like Japan, they are relatively poor in terms of arable land. As people become wealthier, they consume more resources and want bigger houses --taking up more resources, including land (suburbanization). So even while suburbanization of China will be much more muted than in western countries, there is still a demand and expansion into previously arable lands.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        There is no particular reason to think American post-war suburbanization is the natural way things would roll out, given that it is a result of specific policies and cultural tastes. And what's more, it's hard to see why people have to live in arable land in a world where no country produces all of the food it consumes.
        mc32 9y ago
        Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. If you ever travelled there you'd know farmland is being developed into housing. I'm sure you can do your own searches and verify[1]. [1]http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.205 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.20...
- mcguire 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=...
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans?" Are you kidding? Extremely low crime rates? Exceptional innovation, powerhouse industry, dozens of cultural imperatives, engineering marvels? It's one of the most civilized places in the world. Not easy. "refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration" And why would Japan turning into Brazil or America be a good thing? Why do so many people think that it's a cultural imperative to wipe out one's culture and join the globalized morass of cultureless consumers, killing themselves over the latest Nike's and deriving their identity via their smartphone brand of choice? Constantly warring over what historic culture owns what neighbourhood? What constitutes progress? No thanks. What you might consider to be 'authoritarian' - they might consider to be 'social cohesion'. Whereas you want to 'do whatever you want' they might consider 'one's responsibility towards society' as a more important social function. And FYI they don't have 'social issues' out the wazoo - the opposite. Mental health - it's an issue that is still considered taboo, moreover, with an aging population, amply problematic, no place is perfect.
labster 9y ago
I just think that the Japanese people are just better at hiding poverty, going along with cultural values of fitting in and ganbaru. At least to outsiders like me. Here in the US there are large subcultures associated with poverty, and people will wear their social class with pride for tribal recognition.
- dba7dba 9y ago
  Americans (or westerners?) are better at flaunting wealth that they don't have. In US, you buy a 3-bed house with garage and a big yard for $500,000. However that $500,000 house with 30 Year mortgage at %4.125 actually %872,892. And that's if don't default on the house and lost it all in. And look at the cars being driven on the road. How many drive cars that they own outright?
  - scarface74 9y ago
    The median cost of a house is around $188,000. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604 https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    A house you can live in now is worth more than one you can live in in 30 years, and any consideration of interest that doesn't also consider inflation will produce a distorted picture.
mc32 9y ago
As a visitor, it's easy to see the "obvious" issues, but conversely, they have a very low crime rate. Japan is in a strange zone. Their economy is mature and developed like major Western powers, so some people project onto them Western values. They have their own values, different than ours, they don't impose them on us, nor seek to impose them on us, yet, many a westerner critiques Japan through western values and philosophy (as they do China). I think that's a big issue in (mis)understanding Japan.
- chris_va 9y ago
  > they have a very low crime rate. That isn't entirely accurate. Their published statistics on crime are very low.
  - aikinai 9y ago
    The only thing that's going to be under-reported is sexual harassment/assault by known acquaintances (to avoid making a scene). That's not good, but it's very different from whatever it is you're trying to imply. It's not like there's some hidden epidemic of theft and violent crime hidden in the published statistics.
    - mc32 9y ago
      There is one more thing to add. That's murder --many get classified as "accidental death" or something similar. This helps in the conviction rates. But this is still very, very low, despite the misclassification. And for the most part involves gangs, which are on the retreat (dying out and getting pushed out as it becomes less lucrative).
      - vinay427 9y ago
        Are these mostly premeditated murders that don't normally affect tourists or other passersby?
        mc32 9y ago
kurthr 9y ago
It is a pleasantly polite (but unarmed) society, and one of the most foreign for an American to visit even though parts of it (cars, shops, buildings) may look the same. The dichotomy between the surface familiarity and utter cultural (and language) difference is what makes it so wonderfully bizarre! Since I know people who work in the hospitality industry I don't romanticize it, but it's not a horror either. There are crazy places like tourist Roppongi and other red-light districts, but it is still really safe even in the least well of parts of town (so much better than sketchy parts of LA/NY). It's also changing. I only really started regularly seeing random (not artistic) graffiti around 2010... and that's after visiting for almost 20 years. Certainly, I've known about poverty in Japan (mostly seen in Tokyo) since the late 90s and 2000s bust. The late 80s boom/bust priced a lot of people out of housing and they've been slowly cut out of the workforce as well. The kids really started changing in the 90s and by the 2000s a lot of the creatives were wearing t-shirts and tennies to work, which was a huge change (although some traditional places still wear uniforms today). They've (as a cohort) changed some of the norms of work and life (not getting married or having kids!), but have also hidden themselves in weird little sub-cultures (anime, videogames, shopping, karoshi). I should know what's going on in Japanese social media, but I really don't. Anyone have comments on that? It can't be as weird and twisted as Korea.
- mc32 9y ago
  I think the homeless thing was precipitated by the Hanshin EQ and exacerbated by the economy --the EQ displaced thousands of people into tent quarters along riversides, etc., and that never went away. Before the Hanshin, homelessness wasn't very visible thought it existed. The response to that disaster was very poor and unprepared.
- _nalply 9y ago
  I googled Karoshi, isn't it death by overworking? Or is it used for a weird game (Karoshi Suicide Salaryman)? I am confused.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    No, you're correct, karoshi 過労死 means "death by overwork."
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Feniks 9y ago
Doesn't every country have that? I live in a place were by law everyone is entitled to a house and a monthly €1000. And there is still poverty and social ills. I mean the basic MO here is to throw endless amounts of money at every problem and the results are at best mixed.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I suppose, but a lot of people visit Japan and imagine they've just seen what perfect social harmony looks like.
emodendroket 9y ago
Also, less visible, but the pervasive role of organized crime in the world of business and politics is a big one. The Kaplan and Dubro Yakuza book is incredible; a lot of that history feels ripped from the most fantastical movie.

by g09980 9y ago

s4vi0r 9y ago

Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans? Pretty much everything I hear about Japan - whether it be news, or talking to Japanese friends - makes it seem like the country isn't doing so hot as far as the top 10 or 15 countries in the world go. Authoritarian government with poor freedom of press, social and mental health issues out the wazoo, aging population combined with xenophobia/refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration, poor gender equality, salaryman issues, etc. It feels like they peaked in the early to mid 90s and have just sorta been stumbling around since then.

mc32 9y ago
The whole world is heading toward zero pop growth or declining growth. We're projected to peak by about 2050. We'll all be there (with some exceptions). The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. There is no reason a Japan of 70 million should not be a viable society. It's still one of the densest countries on earth, given their usable land --it's mostly unusable, non arable mountainous.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  > The point is, we will need to figure out how to keep society going (economically, or specifically from a population welfare point of view) despite declining populations. Nobody has that figured out. For now the answer for developed countries involves allowing in immigrants to make up for the deaths.
  - mc32 9y ago
    That happens to be the easy answer, but it's not necessarily the only answer. What happens when China enters pop decline? Pump more people into an already overpopulated country --that does not scale. Or when that hits India?
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      In what sense is China "overpopulated"? They have a large population but they also have a tremendous land mass, much of which is only sparsely populated.
      - mc32 9y ago
        Most of the west of the country is not arable at all. Like Japan, they are relatively poor in terms of arable land. As people become wealthier, they consume more resources and want bigger houses --taking up more resources, including land (suburbanization). So even while suburbanization of China will be much more muted than in western countries, there is still a demand and expansion into previously arable lands.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        There is no particular reason to think American post-war suburbanization is the natural way things would roll out, given that it is a result of specific policies and cultural tastes. And what's more, it's hard to see why people have to live in arable land in a world where no country produces all of the food it consumes.
        mc32 9y ago
        Never said American style suburbanization --that's your inference. If you ever travelled there you'd know farmland is being developed into housing. I'm sure you can do your own searches and verify[1]. [1]http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.205 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2747/0272-3638.21.3.20...
mcguire 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29?wprov=...
alexasmyths 9y ago
"Do people really romanticize it, outside of certain delusional anime fans?" Are you kidding? Extremely low crime rates? Exceptional innovation, powerhouse industry, dozens of cultural imperatives, engineering marvels? It's one of the most civilized places in the world. Not easy. "refusal to open up or otherwise encourage mass immigration" And why would Japan turning into Brazil or America be a good thing? Why do so many people think that it's a cultural imperative to wipe out one's culture and join the globalized morass of cultureless consumers, killing themselves over the latest Nike's and deriving their identity via their smartphone brand of choice? Constantly warring over what historic culture owns what neighbourhood? What constitutes progress? No thanks. What you might consider to be 'authoritarian' - they might consider to be 'social cohesion'. Whereas you want to 'do whatever you want' they might consider 'one's responsibility towards society' as a more important social function. And FYI they don't have 'social issues' out the wazoo - the opposite. Mental health - it's an issue that is still considered taboo, moreover, with an aging population, amply problematic, no place is perfect.

labster 9y ago

I just think that the Japanese people are just better at hiding poverty, going along with cultural values of fitting in and ganbaru. At least to outsiders like me. Here in the US there are large subcultures associated with poverty, and people will wear their social class with pride for tribal recognition.

dba7dba 9y ago
Americans (or westerners?) are better at flaunting wealth that they don't have. In US, you buy a 3-bed house with garage and a big yard for $500,000. However that $500,000 house with 30 Year mortgage at %4.125 actually %872,892. And that's if don't default on the house and lost it all in. And look at the cars being driven on the road. How many drive cars that they own outright?
- scarface74 9y ago
  The median cost of a house is around $188,000. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604 https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604
- emodendroket 9y ago
  A house you can live in now is worth more than one you can live in in 30 years, and any consideration of interest that doesn't also consider inflation will produce a distorted picture.

mc32 9y ago

As a visitor, it's easy to see the "obvious" issues, but conversely, they have a very low crime rate. Japan is in a strange zone. Their economy is mature and developed like major Western powers, so some people project onto them Western values. They have their own values, different than ours, they don't impose them on us, nor seek to impose them on us, yet, many a westerner critiques Japan through western values and philosophy (as they do China). I think that's a big issue in (mis)understanding Japan.

chris_va 9y ago
> they have a very low crime rate. That isn't entirely accurate. Their published statistics on crime are very low.
- aikinai 9y ago
  The only thing that's going to be under-reported is sexual harassment/assault by known acquaintances (to avoid making a scene). That's not good, but it's very different from whatever it is you're trying to imply. It's not like there's some hidden epidemic of theft and violent crime hidden in the published statistics.
  - mc32 9y ago
    There is one more thing to add. That's murder --many get classified as "accidental death" or something similar. This helps in the conviction rates. But this is still very, very low, despite the misclassification. And for the most part involves gangs, which are on the retreat (dying out and getting pushed out as it becomes less lucrative).
    - vinay427 9y ago
      Are these mostly premeditated murders that don't normally affect tourists or other passersby?
      - mc32 9y ago

kurthr 9y ago

It is a pleasantly polite (but unarmed) society, and one of the most foreign for an American to visit even though parts of it (cars, shops, buildings) may look the same. The dichotomy between the surface familiarity and utter cultural (and language) difference is what makes it so wonderfully bizarre! Since I know people who work in the hospitality industry I don't romanticize it, but it's not a horror either. There are crazy places like tourist Roppongi and other red-light districts, but it is still really safe even in the least well of parts of town (so much better than sketchy parts of LA/NY). It's also changing. I only really started regularly seeing random (not artistic) graffiti around 2010... and that's after visiting for almost 20 years. Certainly, I've known about poverty in Japan (mostly seen in Tokyo) since the late 90s and 2000s bust. The late 80s boom/bust priced a lot of people out of housing and they've been slowly cut out of the workforce as well. The kids really started changing in the 90s and by the 2000s a lot of the creatives were wearing t-shirts and tennies to work, which was a huge change (although some traditional places still wear uniforms today). They've (as a cohort) changed some of the norms of work and life (not getting married or having kids!), but have also hidden themselves in weird little sub-cultures (anime, videogames, shopping, karoshi). I should know what's going on in Japanese social media, but I really don't. Anyone have comments on that? It can't be as weird and twisted as Korea.

mc32 9y ago
I think the homeless thing was precipitated by the Hanshin EQ and exacerbated by the economy --the EQ displaced thousands of people into tent quarters along riversides, etc., and that never went away. Before the Hanshin, homelessness wasn't very visible thought it existed. The response to that disaster was very poor and unprepared.
_nalply 9y ago
I googled Karoshi, isn't it death by overworking? Or is it used for a weird game (Karoshi Suicide Salaryman)? I am confused.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  No, you're correct, karoshi 過労死 means "death by overwork."

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Feniks 9y ago

Doesn't every country have that? I live in a place were by law everyone is entitled to a house and a monthly €1000. And there is still poverty and social ills. I mean the basic MO here is to throw endless amounts of money at every problem and the results are at best mixed.

emodendroket 9y ago
I suppose, but a lot of people visit Japan and imagine they've just seen what perfect social harmony looks like.

emodendroket 9y ago

Also, less visible, but the pervasive role of organized crime in the world of business and politics is a big one. The Kaplan and Dubro Yakuza book is incredible; a lot of that history feels ripped from the most fantastical movie.