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As someone who only spent a fraction of his life in America, I'm always at wonder at how Americans try to find racism/oppression in every situation. As another

by g09980 9y ago

As someone who only spent a fraction of his life in America, I'm always at wonder at how Americans try to find racism/oppression in every situation. As another poster below alludes, life isn't always pleasant. We can't all be equal, but inequality != servitude.

scarmig 9y ago
We can't all be equal, but we can build a society where old people don't have to work long hours until the day they die, and young people don't have to struggle to pay for electricity or healthcare. I'm just noting that so we don't fall into the trap of letting our Randian overlords pre-emptively limit the bounds of our imagination.
- ci5er 9y ago
  > but we can build a society where old people don't have to work long hours until the day they die Why would we? I note that my father is deteriorating faster now that he does not work. Is it unreasonable to think that work is actually "good for us"?
  - scarmig 9y ago
    I agree that work fosters social interactions and meaning, and older people who continue to maintain those fare a lot better than those who don't. But there's a world of difference between working because it gives you meaning, and working because if you don't you'll starve to death in your unheated apartment. No older person is benefiting from having to dig through trash for bottles to recycle for nickels.
    - ci5er 9y ago
      > No older person is benefiting from having to dig through trash for bottles to recycle for nickels. Agreed. But I think we are squandering the wealth of experience that old people can bring to the work-place by essentially aging them out. They have something to offer - and we need it - and (in Japan) the safety net, it ain't so safe! EDIT: I lived in Japan a long time, but I realized (at some point), that no matter how much I payed into the retirement system, as a retiree, I would lose my visa and be kicked out (just the way it is). So I moved "back home", so that I would have the opportunity to work until I die.
      - g09980 9y ago
        > I would lose my visa and be kicked out It has been awhile since I researched this, but is becoming a permanent resident after 10 years the way to avoid that?
        ci5er 9y ago
        I have the right to permanent residency (by marriage, by work, by children, by investment), but that's not the same as being a citizen. Which is its own thing to go through (I know people who have - but it's tough). By law (although behaviors are changing in contrary ways to the law), I am not even allowed to sign a contract. Say - movie rental. Without a sponsor - I can not (legally) rent a movie. Now, I know, practically, I can. But not legally (with the full power of the courts behind the video shop if I fail to return a VHS tape). What does that mean? It means that I can not and should not expect that the Japanese retirement system that I have spent decades paying into would necessarily consider it their obligation to fund my retirement. Is this changing? Yes, it is. Slowly. Do I want to wait for it? No - I do not. I would rather leave and become independently safe (monied) and return to Japan (because I love it) when my own ability to fund myself is in my own hands.
      - Noos 9y ago
        The wealth of experience scrubbing bathroom floors, I guess. Most of the work this article tells about, and blue collar work in general, is not self-actualizing nor really will make use of a wealth of experience as opposed to a strong back.
- rayiner 9y ago
  It’s not clear that Japan can do that given its population demographics. And I disagree with the premise that old people who can work shouldn’t have to. Society should take care of those who can’t take care of themselves. But it squanders societal resources to exempt able-bodies people from work simply because they’re old.
  - scarmig 9y ago
    > it squanders societal resources to exempt able-bodies people from work simply because they’re old. That sounds like the kind of a decision a paperclip maximizer would make to me. "Societal resources" not being squandered is a perverse thing to optimize for. Consider two worlds: 1) A world that automatically makes N widgets, and people could add an additional N widgets but choose not to 2) A world that automatically makes 0 widgets, and people add an additional N widgets because they choose to If you're going for "not squandering societal resources" as the main metric of a society's value, world 2) is strictly superior, because people waste less time on frivolities like leisure and pleasure. I'm open to arguments, though, that we should spread more leisure and pleasure around the age distribution instead of backloading it. I expect I'd be convinced, even.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      The situation we’re dealing with is scenario 3: a world that makes N widgets, and everyone is used to the quality of life that comes from the society making N widgets, but the population is decreasing and making N widgets is becoming harder and harder. In that situation, why should able-bodied old people get a pass on working? Japan is not a post-scarcity society. Even if income we distributed completely evenly, it would be about $43,000 per year. That’s comfortable, but not so much that Japan could afford to produce a lot less and still enjoy the kind of lifestyle people associate with a developed country.
  - jackvalentine 9y ago
    Isn't Japan pretty infamous for their low productivity per capita? I'd go about optimising the use of healthy young workers away from endless hours of presenteeism to short more productive hours before declaring the well empty and moving on to putting old people to work.
glhaynes 9y ago
It doesn't exactly take a lot of trying to find racism/oppression toward black Americans in most situations.
- g09980 9y ago
  I suppose it may be off-topic, but I don't live in America now and want to learn more. If you live in America, what have you seen personally day-to-day?
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    I’m white. One of my former colleagues is black. He was getting pulled over for various traffic violations every 6-8 weeks on average. Last time we were on a business trip together, about 5 years ago, we waited about 15 minutes to be seated at a chain diner type place. Nobody acknowledged the three of us. A group of 4 college kids walked in and a waitress appeared and seated them ahead of us within 2 minutes. Lots of casual bullshit. It’s sad.
  - glhaynes 9y ago
    Looking for personally-seen day-to-day anecdotes, though often well-intentioned, is where a lot of this discussion ends up going wrong, imo, and it leads to people coming away with the idea that racism in the USA is a mostly "past" problem. Blatant, open racism is pretty taboo in most areas of society, and, even in private situations, it's rare in my experience (though by no means non-existent) to hear openly racist statements, "the n-word", etc. The more enlightening thing to look at is pervasive systemic/institutional racism. I'd recommend doing some googling on those terms if you'd like to learn more.
    - g09980 9y ago
      > doesn't exactly take a lot of trying to find racism/oppression in most situations > is pretty taboo in most areas of society, and, even in private situations, it's rare in my experience English is not my native language so I may be misreading the subtext, but it seemed contradictory
SolaceQuantum 9y ago
It literally says in the article there is a false perception of people who vacation in japan that everyone is just a hard worker happy to work with a smile.
- majewsky 9y ago
  Yeah, but that doesn't imply any racist angle. When you say "happy to serve whites", the word "whites" is yours and yours alone.
danjoc 9y ago
>I'm always at wonder at how Americans try to find racism/oppression in every situation I think what you read here on HN is not a representative sample of Americans.

by g09980 9y ago

scarmig 9y ago

We can't all be equal, but we can build a society where old people don't have to work long hours until the day they die, and young people don't have to struggle to pay for electricity or healthcare. I'm just noting that so we don't fall into the trap of letting our Randian overlords pre-emptively limit the bounds of our imagination.

ci5er 9y ago
> but we can build a society where old people don't have to work long hours until the day they die Why would we? I note that my father is deteriorating faster now that he does not work. Is it unreasonable to think that work is actually "good for us"?
- scarmig 9y ago
  I agree that work fosters social interactions and meaning, and older people who continue to maintain those fare a lot better than those who don't. But there's a world of difference between working because it gives you meaning, and working because if you don't you'll starve to death in your unheated apartment. No older person is benefiting from having to dig through trash for bottles to recycle for nickels.
  - ci5er 9y ago
    > No older person is benefiting from having to dig through trash for bottles to recycle for nickels. Agreed. But I think we are squandering the wealth of experience that old people can bring to the work-place by essentially aging them out. They have something to offer - and we need it - and (in Japan) the safety net, it ain't so safe! EDIT: I lived in Japan a long time, but I realized (at some point), that no matter how much I payed into the retirement system, as a retiree, I would lose my visa and be kicked out (just the way it is). So I moved "back home", so that I would have the opportunity to work until I die.
    - g09980 9y ago
      > I would lose my visa and be kicked out It has been awhile since I researched this, but is becoming a permanent resident after 10 years the way to avoid that?
      - ci5er 9y ago
        I have the right to permanent residency (by marriage, by work, by children, by investment), but that's not the same as being a citizen. Which is its own thing to go through (I know people who have - but it's tough). By law (although behaviors are changing in contrary ways to the law), I am not even allowed to sign a contract. Say - movie rental. Without a sponsor - I can not (legally) rent a movie. Now, I know, practically, I can. But not legally (with the full power of the courts behind the video shop if I fail to return a VHS tape). What does that mean? It means that I can not and should not expect that the Japanese retirement system that I have spent decades paying into would necessarily consider it their obligation to fund my retirement. Is this changing? Yes, it is. Slowly. Do I want to wait for it? No - I do not. I would rather leave and become independently safe (monied) and return to Japan (because I love it) when my own ability to fund myself is in my own hands.
    - Noos 9y ago
      The wealth of experience scrubbing bathroom floors, I guess. Most of the work this article tells about, and blue collar work in general, is not self-actualizing nor really will make use of a wealth of experience as opposed to a strong back.
rayiner 9y ago
It’s not clear that Japan can do that given its population demographics. And I disagree with the premise that old people who can work shouldn’t have to. Society should take care of those who can’t take care of themselves. But it squanders societal resources to exempt able-bodies people from work simply because they’re old.
- scarmig 9y ago
  > it squanders societal resources to exempt able-bodies people from work simply because they’re old. That sounds like the kind of a decision a paperclip maximizer would make to me. "Societal resources" not being squandered is a perverse thing to optimize for. Consider two worlds: 1) A world that automatically makes N widgets, and people could add an additional N widgets but choose not to 2) A world that automatically makes 0 widgets, and people add an additional N widgets because they choose to If you're going for "not squandering societal resources" as the main metric of a society's value, world 2) is strictly superior, because people waste less time on frivolities like leisure and pleasure. I'm open to arguments, though, that we should spread more leisure and pleasure around the age distribution instead of backloading it. I expect I'd be convinced, even.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The situation we’re dealing with is scenario 3: a world that makes N widgets, and everyone is used to the quality of life that comes from the society making N widgets, but the population is decreasing and making N widgets is becoming harder and harder. In that situation, why should able-bodied old people get a pass on working? Japan is not a post-scarcity society. Even if income we distributed completely evenly, it would be about $43,000 per year. That’s comfortable, but not so much that Japan could afford to produce a lot less and still enjoy the kind of lifestyle people associate with a developed country.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  Isn't Japan pretty infamous for their low productivity per capita? I'd go about optimising the use of healthy young workers away from endless hours of presenteeism to short more productive hours before declaring the well empty and moving on to putting old people to work.

glhaynes 9y ago

It doesn't exactly take a lot of trying to find racism/oppression toward black Americans in most situations.

g09980 9y ago
I suppose it may be off-topic, but I don't live in America now and want to learn more. If you live in America, what have you seen personally day-to-day?
- Spooky23 9y ago
  I’m white. One of my former colleagues is black. He was getting pulled over for various traffic violations every 6-8 weeks on average. Last time we were on a business trip together, about 5 years ago, we waited about 15 minutes to be seated at a chain diner type place. Nobody acknowledged the three of us. A group of 4 college kids walked in and a waitress appeared and seated them ahead of us within 2 minutes. Lots of casual bullshit. It’s sad.
- glhaynes 9y ago
  Looking for personally-seen day-to-day anecdotes, though often well-intentioned, is where a lot of this discussion ends up going wrong, imo, and it leads to people coming away with the idea that racism in the USA is a mostly "past" problem. Blatant, open racism is pretty taboo in most areas of society, and, even in private situations, it's rare in my experience (though by no means non-existent) to hear openly racist statements, "the n-word", etc. The more enlightening thing to look at is pervasive systemic/institutional racism. I'd recommend doing some googling on those terms if you'd like to learn more.
  - g09980 9y ago
    > doesn't exactly take a lot of trying to find racism/oppression in most situations > is pretty taboo in most areas of society, and, even in private situations, it's rare in my experience English is not my native language so I may be misreading the subtext, but it seemed contradictory

SolaceQuantum 9y ago

It literally says in the article there is a false perception of people who vacation in japan that everyone is just a hard worker happy to work with a smile.

majewsky 9y ago
Yeah, but that doesn't imply any racist angle. When you say "happy to serve whites", the word "whites" is yours and yours alone.

danjoc 9y ago

>I'm always at wonder at how Americans try to find racism/oppression in every situation I think what you read here on HN is not a representative sample of Americans.