4 ms·

Hmmm. My formative adult years, at the beginning of my career, were spent in Japan, where every female was expected to get married and get out by the age of 28

by ci5er 9y ago

Hmmm. My formative adult years, at the beginning of my career, were spent in Japan, where every female was expected to get married and get out by the age of 28-or-so. I have no opinion or comment on whether that is good or bad for the Japanese men and women in their own society. But after that, I got to the US, and most of the women that I met in "my ranks" of career maturity were definitely very capable - and in it for the long haul. Which is to say: I've never seen the winnowing process up-close-and-personal. I'm guessing that something happens between the ages of 20 and 35? Or maybe less women join in the US in the first place? I don't know. But I think that if we are going to explore what's going on - we're going to have to go upstream of what most of these types of pieces are looking at... > Then once it was realized that programming was more than a clerical task, women were more and more forced out because it was expected that women were going to leave once they got married. That's very interesting if it is true. I'll have to dig into this a bit. EDIT: I am a male, if that wasn't obvious.

eesmith 9y ago
Based on your comments, you are around 50 years old, and after growing up in the US spent about 1/3 of your adult life in (mostly) Japan. Figuring (50-18)/3 = 11 years, so you returned in the mid 1990s. The 1980s was the peak time for women entering professional software development, at least as measured by the percentage of women vs. men receiving a BS in computer science. It was 37% in 1984/1985, says https://www.computerworld.com/article/2474991/it-careers/women-computer-science-grads--the-bump-before-the-decline.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2474991/it-careers/wom... , while in 2010 it was 18%. Those women who graduated in 1985 at 22 are about 55 years old now. This puts them as slightly older than you, but close enough that they would still be part of "your ranks." I point this out because if you base things on your experience then you should realize that your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. As you say, there is a US/UK difference. The speaker I pointed to said that the differences in gender expectations were stronger in the UK than in the US, and that part of those expectations was rooted in imperialism.
- ci5er 9y ago
  Either your math or investigative skills are impressive. > your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. How so? I mean - you've got me pegged, but why is it unusual? > that part of those expectations was rooted in imperialism. Does that follow?
  - eesmith 9y ago
    It was unusual because of the relatively high number of women who entered computing in the 1980s. Or are you asking me why the 1980s was different than the 10 years before and after? For that I can only at best conjecture. Traditionally, mathematically inclined women studied mathematics, with thoughts to being a math teacher. Grace Hopper got her PhD in math and taught mathematics at Vasser, for example. Katherine G. Johnson, of "Hidden Figures" fame, first started as a teacher before becoming a research mathematician. Traditionally, businessmen had women working as secretaries, and it was the women who learned to type. Two of the many exceptions include newspaper writers and army clerks, but in general typing was feminizing. That's why many of the first women in computing came from a math background, and did the typing=programming work. (Going back to your original comment, it really was seen that programming was little different than typing. Do you remember Simonyi's meta-programming concept, which he tried to implement at Microsoft? Wikipedia quotes Cringely "the metaprogrammer was the designer, decision maker, and communication controller in a software development group.... individual progammers were allowed to make no design decisions about the project. All they did was write the code as described by the metaprogrammer.... A programmer with a problem or a question would take it to the metaprogrammer, who could come up with an answer or transfer the question to another programmer..." This sort of programmer is little more than a typist, and I think in the 1970s many people thought that an analyst could figure out the grand plan, drawn up with architecture-like flow charts, at which point it became little more than a typing project to convert it into software.) The 1960s and 1970s was the big struggle for woman's rights; in the workplace, in the home, and in general. By the 1980s it was socially acceptable for women to have a career. (As compared to going to college to get an M.R.S. degree - an old phrase I didn't learn until about 10 years ago.) But still in an era when using a keyboard was generally considered secretarial work, and hence woman's work, so not as attractive to men. It was also just at the start of the microcomputer era, so men and women graduating with a CS degree in 1985 were unlikely to have used a computer at all before going to college. While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. As one example, girls are supposed to be social, while it's okay for boys to be in their computers for hours. Honestly though, there's a lot on that topic, and I can't begin to do it justice. I just wanted to explain enough so you might get a sense that your cohort might not be representative. As for "imperialism", I didn't really understand Hicks' argument from interview I linked to. I assume I would need to read the book to understand.
throwaway_2718 9y ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons... I worked in a small tech company headed by a conservative religious CEO (may or may not be relevant, who's to say?), which was fine, he didn't really talk much about religion, and we just learned never to mention politics. I never had a bad review, made PRs every day, kept my head down, had been working there for three years. When I got engaged, I didn't really talk about it -- they had stopped replacing engineers who left the company and I knew they were going through a rough patch, financially, and it seemed like it would be a bad thing to bring up. The cat was out of the bag when I requested vacation for a honeymoon. The next calendar month, I was let go (they did it so that I would get insurance through the rest of the month). The HR person (the only other woman in the company) actually said "Now you have more time to plan your wedding" and "You still have your husband's salary" Maybe she didn't realize what she said was questionable, maybe she figured they were giving me a good severance package so it didn't matter (not like I could turn around and sue them), but it was still upsetting. My husband is a social worker who only makes $40k/year, and we live in a city with a high cost of living. So, not a great consolation. Fortunately, in addition to severance, my direct manager was apologetic and gave me a great review, and I was able to find a new job with a 40% raise within two weeks -- even while "planning my wedding"! (Also, the old company's doing fine now, judging from LinkedIn) But yes, women often do get winnowed out, even today. At my company, we had to decide who to let go in a remote office and one of my co-workers made the comment "so and so has a family to support." I talked to him about it later and he acknowledged that I made a good point, and he hadn't thought about it like that. But that's the thing -- when managers are trying to "do the right thing" they can often be reluctant to let go of men who they perceive as breadwinners, and women are sometimes seen as making "extra income" for their families. They may view married women as needing the job less than a single woman or a married man. It may or may not even a conscious thing, and it may happen with less frequency today, but it's still occasionally a problem. On another note: It's also a problem (IMO, a larger one) that women tend to drop out of the workforce on their own accord during the ages of 20-35, when they have children. My husband and I are trying for a family so I'm currently facing this issue, and my husband plans to quit his job and stay home with the kids while I go back after maternity leave. I admit, it would be a lot easier if we could just go with the social flow and the genders were reversed here. People would automatically know that I was the male breadwinner, I'd have a wife at home like most other men with families in the company, I wouldn't have to take three months of for biological reasons. But I LOVE my career, and it is what it is. We'll figure it out, but I understand why a lot of women don't want to, or may be dissuaded from putting themselves in that situation early in their careers/relationships altogether.

by ci5er 9y ago

eesmith 9y ago

Based on your comments, you are around 50 years old, and after growing up in the US spent about 1/3 of your adult life in (mostly) Japan. Figuring (50-18)/3 = 11 years, so you returned in the mid 1990s. The 1980s was the peak time for women entering professional software development, at least as measured by the percentage of women vs. men receiving a BS in computer science. It was 37% in 1984/1985, says https://www.computerworld.com/article/2474991/it-careers/women-computer-science-grads--the-bump-before-the-decline.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2474991/it-careers/wom... , while in 2010 it was 18%. Those women who graduated in 1985 at 22 are about 55 years old now. This puts them as slightly older than you, but close enough that they would still be part of "your ranks." I point this out because if you base things on your experience then you should realize that your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. As you say, there is a US/UK difference. The speaker I pointed to said that the differences in gender expectations were stronger in the UK than in the US, and that part of those expectations was rooted in imperialism.

ci5er 9y ago
Either your math or investigative skills are impressive. > your experience comes from working with an unusual cohort. How so? I mean - you've got me pegged, but why is it unusual? > that part of those expectations was rooted in imperialism. Does that follow?
- eesmith 9y ago
  It was unusual because of the relatively high number of women who entered computing in the 1980s. Or are you asking me why the 1980s was different than the 10 years before and after? For that I can only at best conjecture. Traditionally, mathematically inclined women studied mathematics, with thoughts to being a math teacher. Grace Hopper got her PhD in math and taught mathematics at Vasser, for example. Katherine G. Johnson, of "Hidden Figures" fame, first started as a teacher before becoming a research mathematician. Traditionally, businessmen had women working as secretaries, and it was the women who learned to type. Two of the many exceptions include newspaper writers and army clerks, but in general typing was feminizing. That's why many of the first women in computing came from a math background, and did the typing=programming work. (Going back to your original comment, it really was seen that programming was little different than typing. Do you remember Simonyi's meta-programming concept, which he tried to implement at Microsoft? Wikipedia quotes Cringely "the metaprogrammer was the designer, decision maker, and communication controller in a software development group.... individual progammers were allowed to make no design decisions about the project. All they did was write the code as described by the metaprogrammer.... A programmer with a problem or a question would take it to the metaprogrammer, who could come up with an answer or transfer the question to another programmer..." This sort of programmer is little more than a typist, and I think in the 1970s many people thought that an analyst could figure out the grand plan, drawn up with architecture-like flow charts, at which point it became little more than a typing project to convert it into software.) The 1960s and 1970s was the big struggle for woman's rights; in the workplace, in the home, and in general. By the 1980s it was socially acceptable for women to have a career. (As compared to going to college to get an M.R.S. degree - an old phrase I didn't learn until about 10 years ago.) But still in an era when using a keyboard was generally considered secretarial work, and hence woman's work, so not as attractive to men. It was also just at the start of the microcomputer era, so men and women graduating with a CS degree in 1985 were unlikely to have used a computer at all before going to college. While those in later years may have had an Apple ][ or TRS-80 while still kids. And unfortunately, those microcomputers fit into all sorts of cultural biases. As one example, girls are supposed to be social, while it's okay for boys to be in their computers for hours. Honestly though, there's a lot on that topic, and I can't begin to do it justice. I just wanted to explain enough so you might get a sense that your cohort might not be representative. As for "imperialism", I didn't really understand Hicks' argument from interview I linked to. I assume I would need to read the book to understand.

throwaway_2718 9y ago

Throwaway for obvious reasons... I worked in a small tech company headed by a conservative religious CEO (may or may not be relevant, who's to say?), which was fine, he didn't really talk much about religion, and we just learned never to mention politics. I never had a bad review, made PRs every day, kept my head down, had been working there for three years. When I got engaged, I didn't really talk about it -- they had stopped replacing engineers who left the company and I knew they were going through a rough patch, financially, and it seemed like it would be a bad thing to bring up. The cat was out of the bag when I requested vacation for a honeymoon. The next calendar month, I was let go (they did it so that I would get insurance through the rest of the month). The HR person (the only other woman in the company) actually said "Now you have more time to plan your wedding" and "You still have your husband's salary" Maybe she didn't realize what she said was questionable, maybe she figured they were giving me a good severance package so it didn't matter (not like I could turn around and sue them), but it was still upsetting. My husband is a social worker who only makes $40k/year, and we live in a city with a high cost of living. So, not a great consolation. Fortunately, in addition to severance, my direct manager was apologetic and gave me a great review, and I was able to find a new job with a 40% raise within two weeks -- even while "planning my wedding"! (Also, the old company's doing fine now, judging from LinkedIn) But yes, women often do get winnowed out, even today. At my company, we had to decide who to let go in a remote office and one of my co-workers made the comment "so and so has a family to support." I talked to him about it later and he acknowledged that I made a good point, and he hadn't thought about it like that. But that's the thing -- when managers are trying to "do the right thing" they can often be reluctant to let go of men who they perceive as breadwinners, and women are sometimes seen as making "extra income" for their families. They may view married women as needing the job less than a single woman or a married man. It may or may not even a conscious thing, and it may happen with less frequency today, but it's still occasionally a problem. On another note: It's also a problem (IMO, a larger one) that women tend to drop out of the workforce on their own accord during the ages of 20-35, when they have children. My husband and I are trying for a family so I'm currently facing this issue, and my husband plans to quit his job and stay home with the kids while I go back after maternity leave. I admit, it would be a lot easier if we could just go with the social flow and the genders were reversed here. People would automatically know that I was the male breadwinner, I'd have a wife at home like most other men with families in the company, I wouldn't have to take three months of for biological reasons. But I LOVE my career, and it is what it is. We'll figure it out, but I understand why a lot of women don't want to, or may be dissuaded from putting themselves in that situation early in their careers/relationships altogether.