5 ms·

Nathan Myhrvold unveils massive cookbook for science geeks

63 points by cwan 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago
If someone is thinking "what could I get 'tptacek for Christmas for all his helpful comments", know that I can't justify dropping $500 for a book, but I soooooo want to. ;) McGee and Ferran Adria both say this set of books is going to change cooking. McGee wrote basically the bible of culinary science (On Food And Cooking, which you should buy even if you don't cook much, it's just a great, great book to open to any page and thumb through); Ferran Adria is one of cooking's greatest innovators.
- eru 16y ago
  We could do some fund raising for you. :o)
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Fundraise for a new website for Colin Percival's Tarsnap first, please. ;) I'll even chip in!
- joshu 16y ago
  On Food And Cooking is AMAZING. McGee used to live in Palo Alto too. I just bought the Thomas Keller Sous Vide book. I'll probably buy the myrhvold book too. You know what I've found terribly useful lately? The Flavor Bible. On the other hand, somebody got me the recent Herve This book on molecular gastronomy and didn't really get much out of it.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    The Flavor Bible is also fun to flip to an arbitrary page in and read in either direction, but it really wants to be a web app, doesn't it? (There's obviously a bunch of web apps that try, but they don't have the curation that the book has). I don't know if you've been following Myrhvold's cooking stuff, but my understand is that there's a fair bit of mythbusting going on too; he gave a talk recently where he claimed to debunk the notion that you have to poach duck in fat to confit it, for instance (lies! all lies!). My cofounder Dave is a cooking school grad and he's sure that this book is going to be hugely important, even if you already have McGee. But, $500 for a book!
    - pchristensen 16y ago
      6 books, 2400 pages. That's less than a nickel a page, or ~$80 per volume. There, now you're justified, I just gave you an 85% discount per book :)
    - joshu 16y ago
      Oh, totally. Do you know about foodsubs.com? should we just set up a HN instance for cooking, or what? I just bought the polyscience smoke injector thing. This weekend's going to be tasty.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!
      - tptacek 16y ago
        I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!
kqr2 16y ago
Amazon link to book: http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/dp/0982761007/ http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/...
djmdjm 16y ago
http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0684800012 http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0... is a good book that discusses culinary science, and it costs a lot less than $450.
- tptacek 16y ago
  You should absolutely buy this book; it's fantastic and extremely readable. Flip to a random page: oh look, it's every herb used in mainstream and ethnic cooking in the west, broken down by key volatile compounds! McGee's column in the NY Times is also required reading. McGee "broke the story" on gelatin consommes, for example (which by the way one of the coolest tricks ever: simmer anything in water for a few hours, strain, pour in 1/4 packet of gelatin, cool it, freeze it, and then let it thaw in a strainer in the fridge; the gelatin does for the broth what a raft does for a classic consomme --- just read the article; teaser: perfectly clear chocolate consomme --- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html
  - acqq 16y ago
    I have the book and was disappointed, my experience was "OK let's learn about X" I search to find mention in the book, and I get something like "mostly harmless." Or something with much less information than in the first few lines of the wikipedia article about X. I still don't know where's any good stuff in that book. Anybody cares to explain?
    - dagw 16y ago
      McGee is very much a compromise book. For any given topic, be it science, practical cooking techniques or food history and anthropology there are several better books out there. But if you only want one book that briefly touches on all those things then McGee is a good introduction to many topics. Look at On Food and Cooking as a starting place to get inspiration for further research, not as a final destination.
mkramlich 16y ago
A $600 cookbook? Well it has at least one thing going for it: it differentiates itself from most alternative products in the category by being so damn expensive that it could be seen as an ultra premium brand that only the rich could afford. Back to my ultra cheap and healthy rice that does not require any cookbooks to make...
- tptacek 16y ago
  This isn't a cookbook. It's TAOCP, every volume, including the unfinished-but-planned ones, for cooking. It is fully expected to knock pro chefs on their asses.
TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago
Gah. I hate saying it, but 600$ for 6 books?! Im sorry, but i'm poor. He deserves money for his accomplishments but i'll wait for a torrent to be published. Then, I can at least read what he's doing and be awed. And then ii'll stick with my goodwill 2$ cookbooks and written down recipes.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Where to start? * It's not $600; it's $425. * That's not far from what TAOCP costs per-volume. * The production quality (and costs) of these books dwarf TAOCP's; TAOCP isn't also a set of coffee-table books. * They're vitally important to cooking as a profession; moreso because there are so few key books (McGee, New Pro Chef, La Guide) in cooking, especially compared to computing. * Myrvhold poured a huge, vast, mind-boggling amount of research into these books; they aren't a get rich quick scheme. * If $500 is too much (and it's too much for me!), you aren't the audience; you want Cooks Illustrated instead. * "Waiting for a torrent": classy.
  - TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago
    Where for me to start? * Lost my job * Sued for medical bills because insurance didn't cover what they said they would. * Dumped my fiancé after horrendous fights and my emotional stability. * Apartment complex broke my contract by letting her out of lease while holding me liable for the whole contract. * Finally evicted and living in a spare room of good friends out of the goodness of their hearts. * 3 month wait on unemployment in Indiana because employer disputed it. * School is paid for, but due to medical condition when I failed school, they refuse me admittance calling it an academic issue - oxycontin, perocet, and hydrocodone = finals fail. * My right arm can only bend in certain areas but load bearing above my head is less than 5lbs. Disabled enough for free schooling, but not enough for SS disability. * 10% unemployment in this area. So yes, maybe i'm "classy". However, you have no idea of my circumstances. Its not like I could afford it anyway. The lawsuits for garnishment for my medical bills have netted 0$. Cant get work. And im relying on my friends for food even, until food stamps are granted. So go ahead, heap on the criticism.
jpp 16y ago
I interviewed Nathan for my book (Cooking for Geeks, O'Reilly 2010) and will be posting the interview online in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, to those that complain about the price, I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being sold at printing cost. Nathan did not write this book to make money; he wrote it to advance the field of culinary arts in ways that only someone with his resources can. -Jeff
- nkurz 16y ago
  > I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being > sold at printing cost You sound more experienced in these matters than me, but this seems very unlikely. I presume the book will be excellent, but Myrvhold has never been shy about making money. Do you have more evidence back this up? I haven't seen this book, but in general I've always been astonished by how _low_ printing costs are even for full color hardbacks. A cost this high for printing alone would seem extraordinary for anything but print-on-demand.
  - jpp 16y ago
    "Printing cost" is probably too loosy-goosey a term. Perhaps the better sentence would have been: "I would guess—but do not know—that he will not make much of a profit off the sales of the book itself." What surprised me with my book was just how much distribution and storage costs add up. Without getting into exact numbers, the printing costs themselves can be less than those costs, not even factoring in amortized costs. The comments that look at the per-page printing cost (2,400 / 400 = $0.16 / page) leave that out. What would make more sense to me in this case would be the potential intellectual property (patents) that could come about from doing the research for such a book. Regardless, from my conversation from him, it's clear he loves the topic (as do I) and looks at it as a way to contribute to the world. In his case, it just happens to be a business expense as well. Fwiw, authors really don't make that much money on books, excluding the very few at the top of the bestseller list. Nathan put it best: "How to make a small fortune writing a book: First, you start with a large fortune, then..." Having been through the process myself, I'd have to agree with the sentiment.
Revisor 16y ago
Looking at the pictures at http://modernistcuisine.com/ http://modernistcuisine.com/ , I see a strong sense of precision and symmetry. Reading about the volumes, I see sentences like new ingredients such as gelling and thickening agents, emulsifiers, and foams have found their way into every corner of Modernist cuisine. Ever want to infuse liquid smoke into lettuce or noodles? Ehm, no, not really! using prehydrated starches and hydrocolloids to thicken hot and cold liquids; making edible films I won't touch this pretentious book with a ten-foot pole. Cooking is an art, a lore, not science or mathematics. And I want something more than "edible films" on my plates.
camperman 16y ago
Isn't this the same guy who makes money patenting obvious things in programming and computer science and then collecting taxes on others' hard work? I'll pass thanks.

63 points by cwan 16y ago

If someone is thinking "what could I get 'tptacek for Christmas for all his helpful comments", know that I can't justify dropping $500 for a book, but I soooooo want to. ;) McGee and Ferran Adria both say this set of books is going to change cooking. McGee wrote basically the bible of culinary science (On Food And Cooking, which you should buy even if you don't cook much, it's just a great, great book to open to any page and thumb through); Ferran Adria is one of cooking's greatest innovators.

eru 16y ago
We could do some fund raising for you. :o)
- tptacek 16y ago
  Fundraise for a new website for Colin Percival's Tarsnap first, please. ;) I'll even chip in!
joshu 16y ago
On Food And Cooking is AMAZING. McGee used to live in Palo Alto too. I just bought the Thomas Keller Sous Vide book. I'll probably buy the myrhvold book too. You know what I've found terribly useful lately? The Flavor Bible. On the other hand, somebody got me the recent Herve This book on molecular gastronomy and didn't really get much out of it.
- tptacek 16y ago
  The Flavor Bible is also fun to flip to an arbitrary page in and read in either direction, but it really wants to be a web app, doesn't it? (There's obviously a bunch of web apps that try, but they don't have the curation that the book has). I don't know if you've been following Myrhvold's cooking stuff, but my understand is that there's a fair bit of mythbusting going on too; he gave a talk recently where he claimed to debunk the notion that you have to poach duck in fat to confit it, for instance (lies! all lies!). My cofounder Dave is a cooking school grad and he's sure that this book is going to be hugely important, even if you already have McGee. But, $500 for a book!
  - pchristensen 16y ago
    6 books, 2400 pages. That's less than a nickel a page, or ~$80 per volume. There, now you're justified, I just gave you an 85% discount per book :)
  - joshu 16y ago
    Oh, totally. Do you know about foodsubs.com? should we just set up a HN instance for cooking, or what? I just bought the polyscience smoke injector thing. This weekend's going to be tasty.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!
    - tptacek 16y ago
      I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!

kqr2 16y ago

Amazon link to book: http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/dp/0982761007/ http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-Cooking/...

djmdjm 16y ago

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0684800012 http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0... is a good book that discusses culinary science, and it costs a lot less than $450.

tptacek 16y ago
You should absolutely buy this book; it's fantastic and extremely readable. Flip to a random page: oh look, it's every herb used in mainstream and ethnic cooking in the west, broken down by key volatile compounds! McGee's column in the NY Times is also required reading. McGee "broke the story" on gelatin consommes, for example (which by the way one of the coolest tricks ever: simmer anything in water for a few hours, strain, pour in 1/4 packet of gelatin, cool it, freeze it, and then let it thaw in a strainer in the fridge; the gelatin does for the broth what a raft does for a classic consomme --- just read the article; teaser: perfectly clear chocolate consomme --- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html
- acqq 16y ago
  I have the book and was disappointed, my experience was "OK let's learn about X" I search to find mention in the book, and I get something like "mostly harmless." Or something with much less information than in the first few lines of the wikipedia article about X. I still don't know where's any good stuff in that book. Anybody cares to explain?
  - dagw 16y ago
    McGee is very much a compromise book. For any given topic, be it science, practical cooking techniques or food history and anthropology there are several better books out there. But if you only want one book that briefly touches on all those things then McGee is a good introduction to many topics. Look at On Food and Cooking as a starting place to get inspiration for further research, not as a final destination.

mkramlich 16y ago

A $600 cookbook? Well it has at least one thing going for it: it differentiates itself from most alternative products in the category by being so damn expensive that it could be seen as an ultra premium brand that only the rich could afford. Back to my ultra cheap and healthy rice that does not require any cookbooks to make...

tptacek 16y ago
This isn't a cookbook. It's TAOCP, every volume, including the unfinished-but-planned ones, for cooking. It is fully expected to knock pro chefs on their asses.

TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago

Gah. I hate saying it, but 600$ for 6 books?! Im sorry, but i'm poor. He deserves money for his accomplishments but i'll wait for a torrent to be published. Then, I can at least read what he's doing and be awed. And then ii'll stick with my goodwill 2$ cookbooks and written down recipes.

tptacek 16y ago
Where to start? * It's not $600; it's $425. * That's not far from what TAOCP costs per-volume. * The production quality (and costs) of these books dwarf TAOCP's; TAOCP isn't also a set of coffee-table books. * They're vitally important to cooking as a profession; moreso because there are so few key books (McGee, New Pro Chef, La Guide) in cooking, especially compared to computing. * Myrvhold poured a huge, vast, mind-boggling amount of research into these books; they aren't a get rich quick scheme. * If $500 is too much (and it's too much for me!), you aren't the audience; you want Cooks Illustrated instead. * "Waiting for a torrent": classy.
- TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago
  Where for me to start? * Lost my job * Sued for medical bills because insurance didn't cover what they said they would. * Dumped my fiancé after horrendous fights and my emotional stability. * Apartment complex broke my contract by letting her out of lease while holding me liable for the whole contract. * Finally evicted and living in a spare room of good friends out of the goodness of their hearts. * 3 month wait on unemployment in Indiana because employer disputed it. * School is paid for, but due to medical condition when I failed school, they refuse me admittance calling it an academic issue - oxycontin, perocet, and hydrocodone = finals fail. * My right arm can only bend in certain areas but load bearing above my head is less than 5lbs. Disabled enough for free schooling, but not enough for SS disability. * 10% unemployment in this area. So yes, maybe i'm "classy". However, you have no idea of my circumstances. Its not like I could afford it anyway. The lawsuits for garnishment for my medical bills have netted 0$. Cant get work. And im relying on my friends for food even, until food stamps are granted. So go ahead, heap on the criticism.

jpp 16y ago

I interviewed Nathan for my book (Cooking for Geeks, O'Reilly 2010) and will be posting the interview online in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, to those that complain about the price, I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being sold at printing cost. Nathan did not write this book to make money; he wrote it to advance the field of culinary arts in ways that only someone with his resources can. -Jeff

nkurz 16y ago
> I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being > sold at printing cost You sound more experienced in these matters than me, but this seems very unlikely. I presume the book will be excellent, but Myrvhold has never been shy about making money. Do you have more evidence back this up? I haven't seen this book, but in general I've always been astonished by how _low_ printing costs are even for full color hardbacks. A cost this high for printing alone would seem extraordinary for anything but print-on-demand.
- jpp 16y ago
  "Printing cost" is probably too loosy-goosey a term. Perhaps the better sentence would have been: "I would guess—but do not know—that he will not make much of a profit off the sales of the book itself." What surprised me with my book was just how much distribution and storage costs add up. Without getting into exact numbers, the printing costs themselves can be less than those costs, not even factoring in amortized costs. The comments that look at the per-page printing cost (2,400 / 400 = $0.16 / page) leave that out. What would make more sense to me in this case would be the potential intellectual property (patents) that could come about from doing the research for such a book. Regardless, from my conversation from him, it's clear he loves the topic (as do I) and looks at it as a way to contribute to the world. In his case, it just happens to be a business expense as well. Fwiw, authors really don't make that much money on books, excluding the very few at the top of the bestseller list. Nathan put it best: "How to make a small fortune writing a book: First, you start with a large fortune, then..." Having been through the process myself, I'd have to agree with the sentiment.

Revisor 16y ago

Looking at the pictures at http://modernistcuisine.com/ http://modernistcuisine.com/ , I see a strong sense of precision and symmetry. Reading about the volumes, I see sentences like new ingredients such as gelling and thickening agents, emulsifiers, and foams have found their way into every corner of Modernist cuisine. Ever want to infuse liquid smoke into lettuce or noodles? Ehm, no, not really! using prehydrated starches and hydrocolloids to thicken hot and cold liquids; making edible films I won't touch this pretentious book with a ten-foot pole. Cooking is an art, a lore, not science or mathematics. And I want something more than "edible films" on my plates.

camperman 16y ago

Isn't this the same guy who makes money patenting obvious things in programming and computer science and then collecting taxes on others' hard work? I'll pass thanks.