5 ms·

I agree with the point about how technology exposes some kinds of experiments a bit too much. But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outrigh

by Cyph0n 9y ago

I agree with the point about how technology exposes some kinds of experiments a bit too much. But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outright reckless stupidity (obvious exception: protesting civil issues or similar). Just because you (the author) made a stupid decision and narrowly avoided jail time, does not mean that what you did was a good thing in general. Following that logic, should we also argue for reckless driving if some CEO of a startup narrowly missed killing someone back in the day? Should we all drive recklessly so that we can "learn from our mistakes"?

Swizec 9y ago
> But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outright reckless stupidity (obvious exception: protesting civil issues or similar). Is spray painting “corporate deathburgers” on a McDonalds not a form of protest? Sure it’s vandalism as well, but it’s also protest. What if they spray painted “we are 99%” on the same McDonald’s and got jail time? Then “it’s different”?
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  Spray painting on property that is not yours is vandalism. Vandalism is illegal. When I said "protest", I meant getting wrongfully arrested for peaceful protesting, e.g., during the civil rights movement. The kind of arrest that involves standing up for what's right. That is something we can all learn from. Getting arrested for spray painting? That's plain stupid. Maybe Banksy could write a similar op-ed, but I would still think that his argument was stupid.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - MereInterest 9y ago
    An arrest can be perfectly legal, despite being unethical. Saying that vandalism is illegal and is therefore an illegitimate form of protest is like saying that the Civil Rights Movement sit-ins were illegal, and were therefore an illegitimate form of protest. It simply doesn't follow. Do I think that it is an effective form of protest? Not in the slightest. Do I think that it can be categorically ruled out on the basis of legality? Absolutely not.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      I agree with you completely: legality definitely is not absolute. But if your protest is illegal for no valid or higher moral reason, then I don't think it's worth the risk. Going back to the "mistakes are good in college" argument, college students should be smart and mature enough to know which mistakes are actually worth the jail time.
      - MereInterest 9y ago
        College students should be sufficiently smart and mature, yes. I didn't read the article as saying that college students should deliberately make mistakes for the sake of having made them. Rather, the article was focusing more on the response when inadvisable behavior occurs. Should it be seen as a moral fault on the individual, to be punished, or should it be seen as a societal failure, to be used as a teaching moment? The problem is that it is very hard to have situational rules as a population size gets very large. For a population of 100, everybody knows everybody else, and so any failing can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Since you see everybody every day, you can tell which failings are habitual, and which are rare. For a population with limited communication, exile is a useful tool, including self-inflicted exile after social shaming. This is a useful conversation to have, because we are seeing the first generation with fast communication and indefinite storage. Effectively all college students now have everything about them recorded. 40 years down the line, all politicians will have a searchable history. We, as a society, will need to figure out how to deal with this glut of details, as no previous strategy suits the new situation. There are too many people to keep track of, so one can't get a feel for everybody's habitual behavior. There are also too many details available, so the previous strategy of excluding everybody who has a memorable negative detail available is no longer valid. This turned into more of a ramble than I had expected, but I think it is a complicated issue, which deserves thought.
  - labster 9y ago
    Banksy is free to spray paint $100000 of value onto my property any day.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      Same here. But I'm sure neither of us would enjoy it as much if it was a random college student instead.
      - labster 9y ago
        Yeah. But UC Davis had a bridge outside of town, kind of hidden by vegetation. While there was very little graffiti in the city, that bridge was an open space for graffiti and spray-paint art. I like having public places like that where vandalism is implicitly allowed, so that the rest of us can have nice property. Banksy can paint on my property because he has something to say. Someone just writing their name needs somewhere else to work on their artistic voice.
        Cyph0n 9y ago
        Yes, I also like the idea of dedicated public space. It brings out really cool graffiti. For example, I remember seeing a huge mural on the side of an apartment building in Warsaw. It's not "because he has something to say", but rather "because it's worth a shit ton". I'm sure there are many graffiti artists who have more interesting ideas than Banksy does. Would you be alright having an insightful tag on your wall that's worth nothing more than the insight?
        kaybe 9y ago
        There are many cities with areas with explicit permissions in Germany/Europe. There are lists online too.
Spooky23 9y ago
Should a student be unemployable in many situations because of a minor misdemeanor? That happens. Rap sheets should mostly age out or be more inaccessible... especially for petty property crimes.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  No, I don't think that's fair. But the author is explicitly encouraging such behavior because it all worked out for him/her in hindsight. That's what I don't agree with.
  - bsder 9y ago
    > the author is explicitly encouraging such behavior That wasn't what I read. What I read was if you do something that happens to be negative in some way and get noticed, this is now a permanent scarlet letter. This can range from his "corporate deathburgers" (which is vandalism) to a "controversial editorial" (which isn't illegal at all but can bring the wrath of the universe on you). I bet that ALL of us have said things at various points that we would not want recorded forever. Unfortunately, we have not yet evolved appropriately calibrated social behaviors to deal with this. The current modality of "No Tolerance--Burn The Infidel(tm)" for everything, no matter how minor, is not helpful.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      We have. It’s called forgetting and leaving stuff in the past. Now we have records of everything and disqualify folks with no meaningful reasoning. When I started my career in the late 90s, I know of a half dozen senior leaders who were actively involved in the Vietnam era anti war movement. My one director had a scar on the back of his head when some cop on a horse cracked it open with a truncheon. He was arrested for loitering and woke up handcuffed to a hospital bed. That experience might have excluded him from service with the FBI, but otherwise would have no impact. Twenty years from now, will some bullshit arrest like that impact an 18 year old at a Trump protest? Probably.
bsder 9y ago
> But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outright reckless stupidity (obvious exception: protesting civil issues or similar). "Obvious" exception? "Hey, get your stupid protest out of my way to work, jerk." See how that works? Not so obvious anymore, is it? The issue we currently have is that the US justice system is set up for punishment and retribution rather than rehabilitation. We also have a problem in that we somewhere began trying to punish people even after they have "served their punishment and made retribution". Both of these need to change.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  You can get a permit to protest. Also, there are venues that are more suitable than others. If you are part of a strike, things become different. But assuming all of the above is invalid, don't you think protesting an issue like segregation is worth getting people upset about their delayed commute? Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some of my convenience to support people protesting an issue that is important. In a way, it's the price I pay for not joining in on the protest!
  - bsder 9y ago
    > Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some of my convenience to support people protesting an issue that is important. Even at the height of the civil rights movement, the vast majority of the country was apathetic to hostile. That is simply the nature of fighting for these things. Popular positions don't need protests.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      > Popular positions don't need protests. As someone who has lived in dictatorships for most of my life, I strongly disagree with this statement. I guess it's the kind of thing that only someone who lives and breathes democracy would say. On a related note, I'm always amused by people who are strongly against weapons research and manufacturing, especially in the US. It's easy to say "we don't need weapons research" when you are living in a country that possesses the most advanced weapons tech in the world, or even in a country that is a member of the EU or NATO. When your country can't even manufacture an assault rifle and has to rely on potential future enemies to supply it with arms, that's when weapons research becomes necessary.
smnrchrds 9y ago
What if his example was about getting busted for smoking marijuana?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
HighPlainsDrftr 9y ago
I think the point the author is trying to make is: - Spray painting is easy. - Political viewpoints change with time. They mature as the individual does.(whatever that means) - Spray painting a political viewpoint in the 80's and getting caught wouldn't get the the entire online world riled up and debating the problem. You would get the opportunity to continue thinking the same way or change your way of thinking in a somewhat private matter. In the 80's, if you had been caught doing what the author was doing, you'd probably have to clean it up (much harder than the original act). People - especially younger people - need the opportunity to learn and grow. Some will make some terrible mistakes and that has to be dealt with. Others will make mistakes - and they need to have the opportunity to evaluate their position and learn from it (good or bad).
ataturk 9y ago
You would be very surprised, actually. How many notable people have had serious run ins with the law, especially in their youth. My first year of college was as a frequent flyer through the justice system, but nothing super serious, mostly just abject disrespect for the social hierarchy and legal order. A bit of anarchism combined with rebellion against the machine sprinkled with a dash of "doing it for the lulz" type pranks and all kinds of bad things grew from there. I got kicked out of school, and much like the author "narrowly avoided jail." 26 years later, I have a PhD, have made millions of dollars, and haven't had so much as a jaywalking ticket since then. Almost everyone deserves a second chance. Almost. I still think most of what our federal government does is WRONG WRONG WRONG and that people who wield power should be brought to justice for their crimes, along with all the other filth who inhabit leadership roles and then do nothing but produce kickbacks, corruption, and murderous misdeeds in our names. And hey, some things you never grow out of--if anarchy can help build back a better system, then maybe we need a little anarchy.

by Cyph0n 9y ago

Swizec 9y ago

> But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outright reckless stupidity (obvious exception: protesting civil issues or similar). Is spray painting “corporate deathburgers” on a McDonalds not a form of protest? Sure it’s vandalism as well, but it’s also protest. What if they spray painted “we are 99%” on the same McDonald’s and got jail time? Then “it’s different”?

Cyph0n 9y ago
Spray painting on property that is not yours is vandalism. Vandalism is illegal. When I said "protest", I meant getting wrongfully arrested for peaceful protesting, e.g., during the civil rights movement. The kind of arrest that involves standing up for what's right. That is something we can all learn from. Getting arrested for spray painting? That's plain stupid. Maybe Banksy could write a similar op-ed, but I would still think that his argument was stupid.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- MereInterest 9y ago
  An arrest can be perfectly legal, despite being unethical. Saying that vandalism is illegal and is therefore an illegitimate form of protest is like saying that the Civil Rights Movement sit-ins were illegal, and were therefore an illegitimate form of protest. It simply doesn't follow. Do I think that it is an effective form of protest? Not in the slightest. Do I think that it can be categorically ruled out on the basis of legality? Absolutely not.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    I agree with you completely: legality definitely is not absolute. But if your protest is illegal for no valid or higher moral reason, then I don't think it's worth the risk. Going back to the "mistakes are good in college" argument, college students should be smart and mature enough to know which mistakes are actually worth the jail time.
    - MereInterest 9y ago
      College students should be sufficiently smart and mature, yes. I didn't read the article as saying that college students should deliberately make mistakes for the sake of having made them. Rather, the article was focusing more on the response when inadvisable behavior occurs. Should it be seen as a moral fault on the individual, to be punished, or should it be seen as a societal failure, to be used as a teaching moment? The problem is that it is very hard to have situational rules as a population size gets very large. For a population of 100, everybody knows everybody else, and so any failing can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Since you see everybody every day, you can tell which failings are habitual, and which are rare. For a population with limited communication, exile is a useful tool, including self-inflicted exile after social shaming. This is a useful conversation to have, because we are seeing the first generation with fast communication and indefinite storage. Effectively all college students now have everything about them recorded. 40 years down the line, all politicians will have a searchable history. We, as a society, will need to figure out how to deal with this glut of details, as no previous strategy suits the new situation. There are too many people to keep track of, so one can't get a feel for everybody's habitual behavior. There are also too many details available, so the previous strategy of excluding everybody who has a memorable negative detail available is no longer valid. This turned into more of a ramble than I had expected, but I think it is a complicated issue, which deserves thought.
- labster 9y ago
  Banksy is free to spray paint $100000 of value onto my property any day.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    Same here. But I'm sure neither of us would enjoy it as much if it was a random college student instead.
    - labster 9y ago
      Yeah. But UC Davis had a bridge outside of town, kind of hidden by vegetation. While there was very little graffiti in the city, that bridge was an open space for graffiti and spray-paint art. I like having public places like that where vandalism is implicitly allowed, so that the rest of us can have nice property. Banksy can paint on my property because he has something to say. Someone just writing their name needs somewhere else to work on their artistic voice.
      - Cyph0n 9y ago
        Yes, I also like the idea of dedicated public space. It brings out really cool graffiti. For example, I remember seeing a huge mural on the side of an apartment building in Warsaw. It's not "because he has something to say", but rather "because it's worth a shit ton". I'm sure there are many graffiti artists who have more interesting ideas than Banksy does. Would you be alright having an insightful tag on your wall that's worth nothing more than the insight?
      - kaybe 9y ago
        There are many cities with areas with explicit permissions in Germany/Europe. There are lists online too.

Spooky23 9y ago

Should a student be unemployable in many situations because of a minor misdemeanor? That happens. Rap sheets should mostly age out or be more inaccessible... especially for petty property crimes.

Cyph0n 9y ago
No, I don't think that's fair. But the author is explicitly encouraging such behavior because it all worked out for him/her in hindsight. That's what I don't agree with.
- bsder 9y ago
  > the author is explicitly encouraging such behavior That wasn't what I read. What I read was if you do something that happens to be negative in some way and get noticed, this is now a permanent scarlet letter. This can range from his "corporate deathburgers" (which is vandalism) to a "controversial editorial" (which isn't illegal at all but can bring the wrath of the universe on you). I bet that ALL of us have said things at various points that we would not want recorded forever. Unfortunately, we have not yet evolved appropriately calibrated social behaviors to deal with this. The current modality of "No Tolerance--Burn The Infidel(tm)" for everything, no matter how minor, is not helpful.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    We have. It’s called forgetting and leaving stuff in the past. Now we have records of everything and disqualify folks with no meaningful reasoning. When I started my career in the late 90s, I know of a half dozen senior leaders who were actively involved in the Vietnam era anti war movement. My one director had a scar on the back of his head when some cop on a horse cracked it open with a truncheon. He was arrested for loitering and woke up handcuffed to a hospital bed. That experience might have excluded him from service with the FBI, but otherwise would have no impact. Twenty years from now, will some bullshit arrest like that impact an 18 year old at a Trump protest? Probably.

bsder 9y ago

> But jail time? Sorry, that's not just a "mistake", that's outright reckless stupidity (obvious exception: protesting civil issues or similar). "Obvious" exception? "Hey, get your stupid protest out of my way to work, jerk." See how that works? Not so obvious anymore, is it? The issue we currently have is that the US justice system is set up for punishment and retribution rather than rehabilitation. We also have a problem in that we somewhere began trying to punish people even after they have "served their punishment and made retribution". Both of these need to change.

Cyph0n 9y ago
You can get a permit to protest. Also, there are venues that are more suitable than others. If you are part of a strike, things become different. But assuming all of the above is invalid, don't you think protesting an issue like segregation is worth getting people upset about their delayed commute? Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some of my convenience to support people protesting an issue that is important. In a way, it's the price I pay for not joining in on the protest!
- bsder 9y ago
  > Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some of my convenience to support people protesting an issue that is important. Even at the height of the civil rights movement, the vast majority of the country was apathetic to hostile. That is simply the nature of fighting for these things. Popular positions don't need protests.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    > Popular positions don't need protests. As someone who has lived in dictatorships for most of my life, I strongly disagree with this statement. I guess it's the kind of thing that only someone who lives and breathes democracy would say. On a related note, I'm always amused by people who are strongly against weapons research and manufacturing, especially in the US. It's easy to say "we don't need weapons research" when you are living in a country that possesses the most advanced weapons tech in the world, or even in a country that is a member of the EU or NATO. When your country can't even manufacture an assault rifle and has to rely on potential future enemies to supply it with arms, that's when weapons research becomes necessary.

smnrchrds 9y ago

What if his example was about getting busted for smoking marijuana?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

HighPlainsDrftr 9y ago

I think the point the author is trying to make is: - Spray painting is easy. - Political viewpoints change with time. They mature as the individual does.(whatever that means) - Spray painting a political viewpoint in the 80's and getting caught wouldn't get the the entire online world riled up and debating the problem. You would get the opportunity to continue thinking the same way or change your way of thinking in a somewhat private matter. In the 80's, if you had been caught doing what the author was doing, you'd probably have to clean it up (much harder than the original act). People - especially younger people - need the opportunity to learn and grow. Some will make some terrible mistakes and that has to be dealt with. Others will make mistakes - and they need to have the opportunity to evaluate their position and learn from it (good or bad).

ataturk 9y ago

You would be very surprised, actually. How many notable people have had serious run ins with the law, especially in their youth. My first year of college was as a frequent flyer through the justice system, but nothing super serious, mostly just abject disrespect for the social hierarchy and legal order. A bit of anarchism combined with rebellion against the machine sprinkled with a dash of "doing it for the lulz" type pranks and all kinds of bad things grew from there. I got kicked out of school, and much like the author "narrowly avoided jail." 26 years later, I have a PhD, have made millions of dollars, and haven't had so much as a jaywalking ticket since then. Almost everyone deserves a second chance. Almost. I still think most of what our federal government does is WRONG WRONG WRONG and that people who wield power should be brought to justice for their crimes, along with all the other filth who inhabit leadership roles and then do nothing but produce kickbacks, corruption, and murderous misdeeds in our names. And hey, some things you never grow out of--if anarchy can help build back a better system, then maybe we need a little anarchy.