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Shipping your garbage half way around the world does indeed make little sense. But Recycling itself is a good idea - we used to do this, AT&T did it with everyt

by Aloha 9y ago

Shipping your garbage half way around the world does indeed make little sense. But Recycling itself is a good idea - we used to do this, AT&T did it with everything they made, milk and soda came in reusable bottles, other products like instant coffee, creamer, ovaltine, and others also came in glass instead of plastic - yes, reuse does cost the manufacturer more, but right now, those costs are still present, they're just being passed down to an unknown party, at an unknown point in the future. We should be trying reduce plastic use to places where really nothing else can do the job - and use more glass, metal, , and paper instead.

pishpash 9y ago
Manufacturers should be the ones forced to take their products back. That way they (the only ones who can) will take the cost into account and design differently. No more greedy planned obsolescence, no more flimsy crap that breaks in 10 days, no more cries about right to repair. The right incentive solves all the problems.
- Aloha 9y ago
  Does that apply to the guy selling a gallon of milk? Figure that consumer packaging for food, and products generates a ton more volume than a TV set does.
  - erichurkman 9y ago
    You can buy milk in reusable glass milk bottles. Usually it's a buck deposit on the glass bottle. Return it to the store and you get the deposit back. When the milk company drops off a new shipment, they pick up crates of the empty glass bottles. It works well if you always remember to bring the bottles back.
    - djsumdog 9y ago
      Works in much of Europe. In Germany, every store that sells glass has to take it back. You see bottle machines at all the Aldis with scanners. It's mostly automated, and you can tell how old a beer bottle is by how deep the rings are (where the machine rolls it around to scan it).
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        Just about everywhere in the US does this too (down to rolling the fan around, it’s actually a little fun to watch), but it’s not the same as what the parent is describing since those machines crush the glass to be recycled. I’m pretty sure the parent is describing reusing the bottles after reconditioning, which requires taking the bottles intact.
        dfcowell 9y ago
        >and you can tell how old a beer bottle is by how deep the rings are (where the machine rolls it around to scan it). That's what the person you replied to is talking about. Here in Vietnam, like Germany, they refill used beer bottles. You can tell a new bottle from old based on the scuff marks the machinery leaves on the glass, which build up over time. These are the "rings" the GP is referring to.
        BoorishBears 9y ago
        I assumed the machines were like the ones here, that seem to go through an almost identical process, but crush the bottle as a final step. I’ve had an experience with a poorly recycled bottle in another country that turned me off the idea...
        wheels 9y ago
        In Germany the bottles are reused, not just recycled. Specifically beer, soda and juice bottle shapes and sizes are standardized for reuse.
        WalterBright 9y ago
        Standardizing the shape is probably key to efficient reuse.
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    Is it part of his business to make trash? Then yes.
Cyphase 9y ago
> ... Recycling itself is a good idea ... milk and soda came in reusable bottles, other products like instant coffee, creamer, ovaltine, and others also came in glass instead of plastic - yes, reuse does cost the manufacturer more ... As you say at the end of my quote, that's reuse, not recycling. Plus you're really only talking about using glass bottles instead of plastic bottles. None of that means that "Recycling itself is a good idea".
- Aloha 9y ago
  Arguably, Glass, and Metal are easier to recycle - but more energy intensive to do so - its much easier to sort glass and metal than the 9000 kinda of plastic. I'd argue that reuse and recycling are in many cases, functionally semantics.
  - ars 9y ago
    There's no reason to recycle glass. The planet is made of it. Almost every rock you see around you can be melted into glass. And it's completely harmless if thrown out. At most crush it first. The only thing worth recycling is metal.
    - throwaway5752 9y ago
      This is dated but really interesting: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/5703.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/5703.pdf It's worthwhile to recycle glass.
      - yorwba 9y ago
        First paragraph of the conclusion section: Recycling of glass containers saves some energy, but not a signifcant quantity compared to reuse. The primary energy saved is about 2.2 x 10^6 Btu/ton, or 13% of the energy required to make glass containers from virgin raw materials. This estimate includes energy required for the entire product life cycle, starting with raw materials in the ground and ending with either final waste disposition in a landfill or recycled materal collection, processing, and return to the primary manufacturing process. The actual savings depend on local factors, including population density; locations of landfills, recovery facilities, and glass plants; and process efficiencies at the specifc facilities available. The savings increase if wastes must be transported long distances to a landfill or if the containers are made in an inefficient furnace. They decrease if there is no local MRF or glass plant, or if material losses in the recycling loop are high. If the MRF is as much as 100 mi away, savings from recycling are negated.
mc32 9y ago
RE-usable bottles have a finite usable cycle count. Typically around 20 to 30-cycles[1]. They are better than disposable containers, but like anything else they wear, break down, etc. [1]http://www.o-i.com/Sustainability/Refillables/ http://www.o-i.com/Sustainability/Refillables/
intrasight 9y ago
>Shipping your garbage half way around the world does indeed make little sense But it did make sense as long as China accepted the garbage. Remember the ships that bring stuff here will go back to China. No sense in them going back empty.

by Aloha 9y ago

pishpash 9y ago

Manufacturers should be the ones forced to take their products back. That way they (the only ones who can) will take the cost into account and design differently. No more greedy planned obsolescence, no more flimsy crap that breaks in 10 days, no more cries about right to repair. The right incentive solves all the problems.

Aloha 9y ago
Does that apply to the guy selling a gallon of milk? Figure that consumer packaging for food, and products generates a ton more volume than a TV set does.
- erichurkman 9y ago
  You can buy milk in reusable glass milk bottles. Usually it's a buck deposit on the glass bottle. Return it to the store and you get the deposit back. When the milk company drops off a new shipment, they pick up crates of the empty glass bottles. It works well if you always remember to bring the bottles back.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    Works in much of Europe. In Germany, every store that sells glass has to take it back. You see bottle machines at all the Aldis with scanners. It's mostly automated, and you can tell how old a beer bottle is by how deep the rings are (where the machine rolls it around to scan it).
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      Just about everywhere in the US does this too (down to rolling the fan around, it’s actually a little fun to watch), but it’s not the same as what the parent is describing since those machines crush the glass to be recycled. I’m pretty sure the parent is describing reusing the bottles after reconditioning, which requires taking the bottles intact.
      - dfcowell 9y ago
        >and you can tell how old a beer bottle is by how deep the rings are (where the machine rolls it around to scan it). That's what the person you replied to is talking about. Here in Vietnam, like Germany, they refill used beer bottles. You can tell a new bottle from old based on the scuff marks the machinery leaves on the glass, which build up over time. These are the "rings" the GP is referring to.
        BoorishBears 9y ago
        I assumed the machines were like the ones here, that seem to go through an almost identical process, but crush the bottle as a final step. I’ve had an experience with a poorly recycled bottle in another country that turned me off the idea...
      - wheels 9y ago
        In Germany the bottles are reused, not just recycled. Specifically beer, soda and juice bottle shapes and sizes are standardized for reuse.
        WalterBright 9y ago
        Standardizing the shape is probably key to efficient reuse.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  Is it part of his business to make trash? Then yes.

Cyphase 9y ago

> ... Recycling itself is a good idea ... milk and soda came in reusable bottles, other products like instant coffee, creamer, ovaltine, and others also came in glass instead of plastic - yes, reuse does cost the manufacturer more ... As you say at the end of my quote, that's reuse, not recycling. Plus you're really only talking about using glass bottles instead of plastic bottles. None of that means that "Recycling itself is a good idea".

Aloha 9y ago
Arguably, Glass, and Metal are easier to recycle - but more energy intensive to do so - its much easier to sort glass and metal than the 9000 kinda of plastic. I'd argue that reuse and recycling are in many cases, functionally semantics.
- ars 9y ago
  There's no reason to recycle glass. The planet is made of it. Almost every rock you see around you can be melted into glass. And it's completely harmless if thrown out. At most crush it first. The only thing worth recycling is metal.
  - throwaway5752 9y ago
    This is dated but really interesting: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/5703.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/5703.pdf It's worthwhile to recycle glass.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      First paragraph of the conclusion section: Recycling of glass containers saves some energy, but not a signifcant quantity compared to reuse. The primary energy saved is about 2.2 x 10^6 Btu/ton, or 13% of the energy required to make glass containers from virgin raw materials. This estimate includes energy required for the entire product life cycle, starting with raw materials in the ground and ending with either final waste disposition in a landfill or recycled materal collection, processing, and return to the primary manufacturing process. The actual savings depend on local factors, including population density; locations of landfills, recovery facilities, and glass plants; and process efficiencies at the specifc facilities available. The savings increase if wastes must be transported long distances to a landfill or if the containers are made in an inefficient furnace. They decrease if there is no local MRF or glass plant, or if material losses in the recycling loop are high. If the MRF is as much as 100 mi away, savings from recycling are negated.

mc32 9y ago

RE-usable bottles have a finite usable cycle count. Typically around 20 to 30-cycles[1]. They are better than disposable containers, but like anything else they wear, break down, etc. [1]http://www.o-i.com/Sustainability/Refillables/ http://www.o-i.com/Sustainability/Refillables/

intrasight 9y ago

>Shipping your garbage half way around the world does indeed make little sense But it did make sense as long as China accepted the garbage. Remember the ships that bring stuff here will go back to China. No sense in them going back empty.