5 ms·

The destruction of Sappho's works

81 points by lermontov 9y ago

adricnet 9y ago
Thank you for sharing this. It was interesting and a bit sad.
kurthr 9y ago
Now that's some epic if accidental trolling, lost in time like tears on scrolls. Burning the greatest Greek poetry (including that of the 10th muse) and replacing it with works by Gregory of Nazianzus. Then getting everyone to believe it was a pope who ordered it... a different Gregory. Not all heals are wounded, but knowledge is lost, if we believe the traced and misquoted documentation.
- acqq 9y ago
  Isn't it just an error in transmission about "who done it"? They had no Google then. And we have it and still the original souces of today are so often wrongly transmitted in a lot of texts, for various reasons.
acqq 9y ago
> Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire? No, but it was still simple and pure religious fundamentalism that preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved), in charge once the Christianity started to dominate the Empire.
- dang 9y ago
  Haven't we had to ask you before to keep religious flames out of Hacker News? Please keep religious flames out of Hacker News.
  - acqq 9y ago
    It is exactly the topic of the post. "in Constantinople in the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus, had burnt the works of comedians and lyrical poets, including Sappho." That is what we hava about it.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    The comment (copied below in case it has been edited away from some earlier more inflammatory version) is not inflammatory, it is a factual assertion supported by the content of the article. Hiding this subthread is inappropriate, as the comment does not attack the beliefs or adherents of a religion. Rather, it asserts that cultural change resulting from the spread of one religious made the works of this historical writer institutionally unwelcome. Labeling this as a flame and shaming the poster for it is extremely inappropriate. No, but it was still simple and pure religious fundamentalism that preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved), in charge once the Christianity started to dominate the Empire.
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      > The comment is not inflammatory, it is a factual assertion supported by the content of the article. It can be both.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        No. Inflammatory content is that designed to arouse emotion and foreclose discussion through slurs, characterizations, fallacies, and rhetorical trickery (eg sealioning, Gish gallops and so forth). no such techniques are being used here and it's deeply unfair to imply otherwise. This is punishing someone for making a substantive observation based on that person's previous comments having been controversial. It's literally a command for a specific person not to express any sort of opinion on a specific subject.
      - acqq 9y ago
        Read again exactly what I commented to, the last line of the article, specifically: "Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire?" Could you believe that that line to me sounded just like "was it the beautiful color of the skirt she wore that ultimately had her raped and killed"? Yes, I do feel I belong to the "oppressed" group in this very case, being an atheist. Try to consider this from my point of view. Also note that here we talk about the poet whose place of birth gave the name to the "lesbians" and who was highly acclaimed for the quality of her poems. But the poems disappeared once a religion which gave us https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A26-27 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A26-2... started to spread. Note that the scholarly consensus is that Paul authored that Epistle to the Romans, that is, it is considered one of the very earliest Christian writings, predating all the gospels! Think about it: the lines against the lesbians were written down before the accounts of the deeds of "the savior." Nevertheless, to that "maybe she deserved it" line I've just responded with what is the common knowledge among those who are familiar with the history of these periods, and even supported by the research of the article writer, locating the source for the claim much more specific than what I've claimed. There are also effectively no other causes that are presented as responsible for disappearance of Sapho's work, or which wouldn't match my claim. You can read my longer comment here for more details.
- olavk 9y ago
  According to the article it seems nobody really knows, and there is no evidence they were destroyed on purpose. So do you have some additional information?
  - acqq 9y ago
    The article shows that the claim "Pope Gregory VII ordered that all of Sappho’s works be burnt in Rome in 1073" is wrong. But it then quotes another source that "the Greek Church authorities, supported by the Byzantine emperors, burnt eminent classical Greek poetry, including Sappho’s works, and replaced the burnt poems with those of Gregory of Nazianzus." Now, there are no other sources that the author knows, and there is no any other source claiming something completely different. And knowing the general context, at that time there was no need to actually burn some works to prevent them to survive. As the books were not printed, somebody had to copy the book letter by letter. Therefore somebody must have "preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved)." The only thing we have to figure out, who that "somebody" could have been: effectively all the books that survived through these times were copied by the monks or for the religious rulers, and we also know quite well what their preferences were. Therefore, the ending of the article: "Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire?" is very, very mean. It is virtually constructed to sound like blaming a victim. If you've just casually read the article I'm not surprised that you may have missed that. That's what prompted me to speak in clear words, which is obviously considered "offensive" for some people here, even if the events happened more than 1000 years ago in the different context as today and we are only discussing that. I consider that absurd. But maybe that's the reason why the article author also made that inappropriate ending. The apparently "offensive" sentences I've written here aren't different from the sentences from the bestseller works from 300 years ago. It's obviously not only progress that we witness in our times. The only thing we are not 100% sure is if the book techically disappeared in flames. What's behind the disappearance is really clear. Moreover, we can consider how much we can trust that claim "the Greek Church authorities, supported by the Byzantine emperors, burnt eminent classical Greek poetry, including Sappho’s works, and replaced the burnt poems with those of Gregory of Nazianzus." It is the only specific claim we have, so it is must be treated as such.
djroomba 9y ago
So book burning is something humans have always done. Hopefully we don't pass on our primitive traits to refuse reality to our AI. History shouldnt be written by the winners. History should be the truth.
- sorokod 9y ago
  Doubt that these were "books" but yes, ideas often threaten people's beliefs and consequently destroyed by those people.
meddlepal 9y ago
Interesting read, but rather sad that we've lost this poetic artwork. Religion and emotion are the two most destructive forces on our planet.
- mirimir 9y ago
  That's rather a harsh generalization. And why leave out intelligence and science? Imbalance is arguably most dangerous.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  Without emotion, of course, Sappho would never have written her poems and we modern people would not be able to appreciate them.
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  You'd think it was indifference that was most destructive. Papyrus and parchment last hundreds of years, so many works, including Sappho's became lost because the public did not care any longer and did not maintain the contents. Nowadays you'd call this "bit rot". Incidentally, the Church would consider indifference or acedia the worst of sins, many pieces of spiritual literature are witness to that fact.
surlyadopter 9y ago
Bitrot, Byzantine style.
woodruffw 9y ago
Vivamus, mea Lesbia, atque amemus...
TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
One of the great things about the modern world is that it is very easy to create copies of a work all over the world. But that doesn't mean it will necessarily happen, it requires forethought and a willingness to hold onto those copies. I fear the book-burnings to come.
- acqq 9y ago
  Correct. And on the internet, the whole big sites with valuable content disappear overnight. That is why I actively support the Internet Archive and would like to motivate others to do the same: https://archive.org/donate/ https://archive.org/donate/ Also: "Right now, a generous supporter will match your donations 3-to-1—so you can triple your impact. That means for every dollar you donate right now, the Internet Archive will receive $4 in all." I really believe what they are doing is very important even relatively short-term, that is, even measured in years.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
    …well, I just donated $50, thank you for reminding me I should.
xrd 9y ago
Worth reading this one again about Sappho. http://clivethompson.net/2016/05/16/astronomers-crack-the-secret-of-this-gorgeous-poem-by-sappho/ http://clivethompson.net/2016/05/16/astronomers-crack-the-se...
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Did the Byzantine church leaders really burn Sappho's poetry? Given that the outlook of the Greek Orthodox church has not changed much since Byzantine times and from my experience of its members, having been brought up Greek Orthodox myself, I would like to venture a guess that yeah, probably.
- olavk 9y ago
  Does the Greek Orthodox church burn books? Do you have personal experience of that?
zipwitch 9y ago
The line that has always stuck with me: μνάσασθαί τινά φαιμι †καὶ ἕτερον† ἀμμέων "I think men will remember us even hereafter." There are other translations, but the core idea, that this woman writing ~2600 years ago grokked that she and her words we be known to humans across so many years, really seems powerful to me.

81 points by lermontov 9y ago

Thank you for sharing this. It was interesting and a bit sad.

Now that's some epic if accidental trolling, lost in time like tears on scrolls. Burning the greatest Greek poetry (including that of the 10th muse) and replacing it with works by Gregory of Nazianzus. Then getting everyone to believe it was a pope who ordered it... a different Gregory. Not all heals are wounded, but knowledge is lost, if we believe the traced and misquoted documentation.

acqq 9y ago
Isn't it just an error in transmission about "who done it"? They had no Google then. And we have it and still the original souces of today are so often wrongly transmitted in a lot of texts, for various reasons.

acqq 9y ago

> Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire? No, but it was still simple and pure religious fundamentalism that preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved), in charge once the Christianity started to dominate the Empire.

dang 9y ago
Haven't we had to ask you before to keep religious flames out of Hacker News? Please keep religious flames out of Hacker News.
- acqq 9y ago
  It is exactly the topic of the post. "in Constantinople in the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus, had burnt the works of comedians and lyrical poets, including Sappho." That is what we hava about it.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  The comment (copied below in case it has been edited away from some earlier more inflammatory version) is not inflammatory, it is a factual assertion supported by the content of the article. Hiding this subthread is inappropriate, as the comment does not attack the beliefs or adherents of a religion. Rather, it asserts that cultural change resulting from the spread of one religious made the works of this historical writer institutionally unwelcome. Labeling this as a flame and shaming the poster for it is extremely inappropriate. No, but it was still simple and pure religious fundamentalism that preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved), in charge once the Christianity started to dominate the Empire.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    > The comment is not inflammatory, it is a factual assertion supported by the content of the article. It can be both.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      No. Inflammatory content is that designed to arouse emotion and foreclose discussion through slurs, characterizations, fallacies, and rhetorical trickery (eg sealioning, Gish gallops and so forth). no such techniques are being used here and it's deeply unfair to imply otherwise. This is punishing someone for making a substantive observation based on that person's previous comments having been controversial. It's literally a command for a specific person not to express any sort of opinion on a specific subject.
    - acqq 9y ago
      Read again exactly what I commented to, the last line of the article, specifically: "Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire?" Could you believe that that line to me sounded just like "was it the beautiful color of the skirt she wore that ultimately had her raped and killed"? Yes, I do feel I belong to the "oppressed" group in this very case, being an atheist. Try to consider this from my point of view. Also note that here we talk about the poet whose place of birth gave the name to the "lesbians" and who was highly acclaimed for the quality of her poems. But the poems disappeared once a religion which gave us https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A26-27 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A26-2... started to spread. Note that the scholarly consensus is that Paul authored that Epistle to the Romans, that is, it is considered one of the very earliest Christian writings, predating all the gospels! Think about it: the lines against the lesbians were written down before the accounts of the deeds of "the savior." Nevertheless, to that "maybe she deserved it" line I've just responded with what is the common knowledge among those who are familiar with the history of these periods, and even supported by the research of the article writer, locating the source for the claim much more specific than what I've claimed. There are also effectively no other causes that are presented as responsible for disappearance of Sapho's work, or which wouldn't match my claim. You can read my longer comment here for more details.
olavk 9y ago
According to the article it seems nobody really knows, and there is no evidence they were destroyed on purpose. So do you have some additional information?
- acqq 9y ago
  The article shows that the claim "Pope Gregory VII ordered that all of Sappho’s works be burnt in Rome in 1073" is wrong. But it then quotes another source that "the Greek Church authorities, supported by the Byzantine emperors, burnt eminent classical Greek poetry, including Sappho’s works, and replaced the burnt poems with those of Gregory of Nazianzus." Now, there are no other sources that the author knows, and there is no any other source claiming something completely different. And knowing the general context, at that time there was no need to actually burn some works to prevent them to survive. As the books were not printed, somebody had to copy the book letter by letter. Therefore somebody must have "preferred her work disappearing (or at least not being saved)." The only thing we have to figure out, who that "somebody" could have been: effectively all the books that survived through these times were copied by the monks or for the religious rulers, and we also know quite well what their preferences were. Therefore, the ending of the article: "Was it the flames of Sappho’s burning love that ultimately put her own work on the bonfire?" is very, very mean. It is virtually constructed to sound like blaming a victim. If you've just casually read the article I'm not surprised that you may have missed that. That's what prompted me to speak in clear words, which is obviously considered "offensive" for some people here, even if the events happened more than 1000 years ago in the different context as today and we are only discussing that. I consider that absurd. But maybe that's the reason why the article author also made that inappropriate ending. The apparently "offensive" sentences I've written here aren't different from the sentences from the bestseller works from 300 years ago. It's obviously not only progress that we witness in our times. The only thing we are not 100% sure is if the book techically disappeared in flames. What's behind the disappearance is really clear. Moreover, we can consider how much we can trust that claim "the Greek Church authorities, supported by the Byzantine emperors, burnt eminent classical Greek poetry, including Sappho’s works, and replaced the burnt poems with those of Gregory of Nazianzus." It is the only specific claim we have, so it is must be treated as such.

djroomba 9y ago

So book burning is something humans have always done. Hopefully we don't pass on our primitive traits to refuse reality to our AI. History shouldnt be written by the winners. History should be the truth.

sorokod 9y ago
Doubt that these were "books" but yes, ideas often threaten people's beliefs and consequently destroyed by those people.

meddlepal 9y ago

Interesting read, but rather sad that we've lost this poetic artwork. Religion and emotion are the two most destructive forces on our planet.

mirimir 9y ago
That's rather a harsh generalization. And why leave out intelligence and science? Imbalance is arguably most dangerous.
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
Without emotion, of course, Sappho would never have written her poems and we modern people would not be able to appreciate them.
HarryHirsch 9y ago
You'd think it was indifference that was most destructive. Papyrus and parchment last hundreds of years, so many works, including Sappho's became lost because the public did not care any longer and did not maintain the contents. Nowadays you'd call this "bit rot". Incidentally, the Church would consider indifference or acedia the worst of sins, many pieces of spiritual literature are witness to that fact.

surlyadopter 9y ago

Bitrot, Byzantine style.

woodruffw 9y ago

Vivamus, mea Lesbia, atque amemus...

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

One of the great things about the modern world is that it is very easy to create copies of a work all over the world. But that doesn't mean it will necessarily happen, it requires forethought and a willingness to hold onto those copies. I fear the book-burnings to come.

acqq 9y ago
Correct. And on the internet, the whole big sites with valuable content disappear overnight. That is why I actively support the Internet Archive and would like to motivate others to do the same: https://archive.org/donate/ https://archive.org/donate/ Also: "Right now, a generous supporter will match your donations 3-to-1—so you can triple your impact. That means for every dollar you donate right now, the Internet Archive will receive $4 in all." I really believe what they are doing is very important even relatively short-term, that is, even measured in years.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
  …well, I just donated $50, thank you for reminding me I should.

xrd 9y ago

Worth reading this one again about Sappho. http://clivethompson.net/2016/05/16/astronomers-crack-the-secret-of-this-gorgeous-poem-by-sappho/ http://clivethompson.net/2016/05/16/astronomers-crack-the-se...

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

>> Did the Byzantine church leaders really burn Sappho's poetry? Given that the outlook of the Greek Orthodox church has not changed much since Byzantine times and from my experience of its members, having been brought up Greek Orthodox myself, I would like to venture a guess that yeah, probably.

olavk 9y ago
Does the Greek Orthodox church burn books? Do you have personal experience of that?

zipwitch 9y ago

The line that has always stuck with me: μνάσασθαί τινά φαιμι †καὶ ἕτερον† ἀμμέων "I think men will remember us even hereafter." There are other translations, but the core idea, that this woman writing ~2600 years ago grokked that she and her words we be known to humans across so many years, really seems powerful to me.