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You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the p

You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans. The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you, especially if you’re young and especially if they can tell you’re poor.

ivraatiems 9y ago
> You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans. Rights and due process apply to everyone, not just people who can afford it or people the police like. Telling someone "don't assert your rights because you're poor" is telling them to self-subjugate; that's awful advice not only because it hurts the person, but also because it actively harms our system of justice. Again, everyone has the right to an attorney and the government must give you one. It's in the Constitution. A busy, tired public defender who is competent is still better than not having a lawyer. An incompetent attorney is also still better, because "my counsel was incompetent" is a solid way to win an appeal of a conviction if it can be proven. > The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you, especially if you’re young and especially if they can tell you’re poor. Do you have any evidence of this at all? That is, do you have evidence that going along with what an abusive officer tells you to do is going to prevent them from abusing you? If an officer doesn't like you and is willing to abuse their authority as a result, what are you supposed to do? Let them? You aren't going to stop them from doing so by "being nice," plenty of people are polite to police officers and get in trouble anyway. Let's play this out: If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer arrests you and charges you, but you're innocent, the lawyer is there to prove your innocence. If you answer the officer's questions, you have no idea whether they'll arrest and charge you or not, and if they do, they now have evidence that will make proving your innocence much, much harder to do. If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer hits you over the head or continues to scream questions at you, then arrests you and charges you, the officer has just committed a crime and their testimony is now suspect. Things proceed as above, but your lawyer now has ammunition to use to help you in court. Both of these outcomes are better in the long term than this bizarre "go along with whatever because the system sucks" approach.
- throwaway0255 9y ago
  > Do you have any evidence of this at all? Being young and poor and interacting with the police. Their behavior changes when the other upstanding members of society aren’t in the room. There’s a way to navigate that situation favorably, and it doesn’t involve refusing to speak to them and hoping you get a good public defender. Speak without saying a lot, be careful what you say, sure. But refusing to speak entirely and pretending you have an attorney is likely to just anger them (if you’re poor), and they do have the power to subject you to our criminal justice system, and people do get treated unfairly and wrongfully imprisoned all the time.
  - ivraatiems 9y ago
    > But refusing to speak entirely and pretending you have an attorney is likely to just anger them (if you’re poor), and they do have the power to subject you to our criminal justice system, and people do get treated unfairly and wrongfully imprisoned all the time. You're not pretending to do anything. You're invoking a right you actually, absolutely have. They know (or should know) the difference and that they have an obligation to do certain things in that situation. > Being young and poor and interacting with the police. > Their behavior changes when the other upstanding members of society aren’t in the room. I believe you. But I also believe that you have societal protections you're choosing not to use. I understand that I'm probably not going to convince you of this in the face of your lived experience. I just think that if we continue to perpetuate the idea that some people can't and will never get what in fact everyone is entitled to, we're never going to solve the problem.
- jopsen 9y ago
  > Things proceed as above, but your lawyer now has ammunition to use to help you in court. We see it in the news time and time again, that public defenders spend a total of 15 minutes with their clients before trial. If they meet them at all. We see time and time again that poor Americans spend months waiting for trial. In jail or out on bond (unable to get a job because of the bond). For poor Americans self-subjugation might be a reasonable legal strategy. We certainly hear of many innocent people taking a plea bargain, because it was faster than waiting for trial. And because they had no faith in the US justice system. Just google around, there's lots of problems, pretrial detention is just one reason why poor Americans would be encouraged to submit, rather than demand justice: http://www.pretrial.org/the-problem/ http://www.pretrial.org/the-problem/

ivraatiems 9y ago

> You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans. Rights and due process apply to everyone, not just people who can afford it or people the police like. Telling someone "don't assert your rights because you're poor" is telling them to self-subjugate; that's awful advice not only because it hurts the person, but also because it actively harms our system of justice. Again, everyone has the right to an attorney and the government must give you one. It's in the Constitution. A busy, tired public defender who is competent is still better than not having a lawyer. An incompetent attorney is also still better, because "my counsel was incompetent" is a solid way to win an appeal of a conviction if it can be proven. > The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you, especially if you’re young and especially if they can tell you’re poor. Do you have any evidence of this at all? That is, do you have evidence that going along with what an abusive officer tells you to do is going to prevent them from abusing you? If an officer doesn't like you and is willing to abuse their authority as a result, what are you supposed to do? Let them? You aren't going to stop them from doing so by "being nice," plenty of people are polite to police officers and get in trouble anyway. Let's play this out: If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer arrests you and charges you, but you're innocent, the lawyer is there to prove your innocence. If you answer the officer's questions, you have no idea whether they'll arrest and charge you or not, and if they do, they now have evidence that will make proving your innocence much, much harder to do. If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer hits you over the head or continues to scream questions at you, then arrests you and charges you, the officer has just committed a crime and their testimony is now suspect. Things proceed as above, but your lawyer now has ammunition to use to help you in court. Both of these outcomes are better in the long term than this bizarre "go along with whatever because the system sucks" approach.

throwaway0255 9y ago
> Do you have any evidence of this at all? Being young and poor and interacting with the police. Their behavior changes when the other upstanding members of society aren’t in the room. There’s a way to navigate that situation favorably, and it doesn’t involve refusing to speak to them and hoping you get a good public defender. Speak without saying a lot, be careful what you say, sure. But refusing to speak entirely and pretending you have an attorney is likely to just anger them (if you’re poor), and they do have the power to subject you to our criminal justice system, and people do get treated unfairly and wrongfully imprisoned all the time.
- ivraatiems 9y ago
  > But refusing to speak entirely and pretending you have an attorney is likely to just anger them (if you’re poor), and they do have the power to subject you to our criminal justice system, and people do get treated unfairly and wrongfully imprisoned all the time. You're not pretending to do anything. You're invoking a right you actually, absolutely have. They know (or should know) the difference and that they have an obligation to do certain things in that situation. > Being young and poor and interacting with the police. > Their behavior changes when the other upstanding members of society aren’t in the room. I believe you. But I also believe that you have societal protections you're choosing not to use. I understand that I'm probably not going to convince you of this in the face of your lived experience. I just think that if we continue to perpetuate the idea that some people can't and will never get what in fact everyone is entitled to, we're never going to solve the problem.
jopsen 9y ago
> Things proceed as above, but your lawyer now has ammunition to use to help you in court. We see it in the news time and time again, that public defenders spend a total of 15 minutes with their clients before trial. If they meet them at all. We see time and time again that poor Americans spend months waiting for trial. In jail or out on bond (unable to get a job because of the bond). For poor Americans self-subjugation might be a reasonable legal strategy. We certainly hear of many innocent people taking a plea bargain, because it was faster than waiting for trial. And because they had no faith in the US justice system. Just google around, there's lots of problems, pretrial detention is just one reason why poor Americans would be encouraged to submit, rather than demand justice: http://www.pretrial.org/the-problem/ http://www.pretrial.org/the-problem/