5 ms·

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, y

by joshmn 9y ago

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, you don't need to say anything other than, "I'm going to ask you to refer all questions to my counsel as I'm not prepared to handle or able to answer any questions you may have." Don't have counsel? Get some. Can't afford any? Tell the policeman/woman that you'll "confer with your legal team" and if your "legal team" believes it's appropriate to answer questions, you'll let them know. Oh, and call your local public defender's office. A policeman/woman may, "just want to talk" or, "ask you a few questions"; that's okay, just repeat what you said. They may say "you're not in trouble" and that's great, so repeat what you said. A policeman/woman can only get you in trouble, they cannot get you out of trouble. When it comes to court, our public defenders system, while it means well, is horribly broken. PDs are often assigned far too many cases they can reasonably handle. PDs don't go to trial often enough, because they can't handle the additional workload.

kolbe 9y ago
How do you balance that and obstruction of justice for crimes that you are not a suspect in? Especially ones where your knowledge is urgent and your silence is a public danger.
- omegaham 9y ago
  I'm sure that there are situations where this is good to consider, but real life isn't a Criminal Minds episode where the lady's slowly getting lowered into the Pit of Misery while the police frantically try to get there in time. If you have important information, it can wait a day while you get your affairs in order. If it really is that urgent, yes, I would say something. Any other time? It can wait.
- danenania 9y ago
  You can (and should) help out, but with a lawyer present.
mistermann 9y ago
It seems to me that this advice forgets it's own lesson: A policeman/woman can only get you in trouble. In many cases, a copy really does just want to have a 5 minute chat, and if you stonewall them (Am I being detained?), they might decide to exercise their power to get you in trouble, just to return the sentiment of unreasonableness.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Did you not watch the video? Even if you tell the absolute truth, the cops _might_ be able to twist that against you somehow. Don't give them any ammunition. Sure, if the cop wants to be a hard-ass, let him haul you in. He probably won't because of all the paperwork. The point of the video is that it's the cop's job to try to haul you in. Don't do the cop's job for him - he's much better at it than you are defending your innocence. For an example, watch "My Cousin Vinnie". The sheriff accuses the defendant of shooting a clerk. The defendant responds incredulously "I shot him?" How do you think that reads in court in a deadpan voice?
- dmix 9y ago
  Right, telling someone to "say the bare minimum" doesn't mean saying nothing at all and treating the officer poorly. Don't act superior because you happen to know your rights, that's basically as bad as being a two-bit criminal in their eyes. Police don't recruit people based on their sensitivity and grasp of common sense, they are people who enjoy the power dynamic the job gives them and for the most part 99% of the time people go out of their way to respect them (for better or worse) and whenever someone doesn't they over react, like a slighted bully in elementary school. Police culture and training promotes this toxic type of no-common sense approach to handling situations, it trains them to be assertive and the 'alpha-male' in all situations, so any type of rebellion against this idea to them is treated as sacrosanct, at least by the average (aka dumb) officer. And yes, for the most part if you are respectful and non-confrontational you won't have any problems. Some people reject this entirely and think they have rights so they should assert them always. But ultimately these are social situations in which one party is given a significant imbalance of power, that goes well beyond the rational/common-sense "I didnt do anything wrong" context, and which goes well beyond the rights you do actually have - in a courtroom in front a judge. The simple fact is police can make your life miserable without crossing any legal/employer boundaries. The bureaucracy, political culture, and power structures allow this to happen. So if you care about this try to focus your energy on changing politics, police training, and the accepted police culture at the society/community level. In individual moments it's probably not worth the energy. But that said, never ever say anything you don't want to reveal to a police officer, even (or especially) if you broke a law, and never trust a single thing they say about it being "the best thing for you to do at this moment". Be polite and listen to what they say in terms of behaviours, but if you are pressed repeatedly after not wanting to say something, then say you want a lawyer present because you don't feel comfortable in this situation. And yes sometimes that requires you being a "dick" to be assertive, but that's because the police have an incentive to make you feel that way. As long as you are a good citizen otherwise they have nothing on you and the truth will come out in court, if they can prove you did anything to get to that point.
Simon_says 9y ago
I've heard this advice a lot. Have you ever followed this in real life? How did it work out for you? I worry that cops have the potential to make my life very unpleasant if I annoy them.
- scarecrowbob 9y ago
  Yeah, like, it's as easy as not responding with an answer when they ask you if you know how fast you were going. It's not that hard and if you're polite and you're white you're probably going to be okay.
- gumby 9y ago
  "I'm just asking to see if you tell the truth. If you don't answer I know you're guilty". And end up arrested.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    Cops don't decide guilt or innocence. That doesn't make any sense.
    - gumby 9y ago
      Ever been arrested? It's no fun, and there's understandably a presumption by pretty much all concerned that the cop is telling the truth and the accused perp is not. What you say is indeed how the law is written, sure, but the truth on the ground is different.
- csomar 9y ago
  Who is annoying who? You are not required to answer any question. You might as well be non-polite too (I'm not suggesting it).
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    Well, in my philosophy, the guy with the gun and the legal authority to arrest is the one who gets to decide who's annoying, unfortunately.
TaylorAlexander 9y ago
I grew up in a very privileged white world, with an attitude that I could always talk to the police because they were never interested in me. I felt that there would be unlikely to be an outcome where I got in any real trouble even if I had been breaking the law in some childish but “not actually bad” kind of way. Doing some dumb stunt or smoking a little weed - “nothing serious”. A friend from a different place helped me see that in so many ways that attitude was only one I could hold from my position of extreme privilege. The world was in a sense made for me, or rather people like me. As a “normal” white male the system had built-in leniency. White judges would “understand I was a good kid” who “meant no harm”. The law had a built in amount of forgiveness for me. I could risk doing dumb things and still talk to police. For everyone who isn’t amongst the class this world was build for, the reality is very different. Even my outlook was a fantasy that may not always hold true, but for others there is not even the comfort of that belief. People like me who are comfortable will perpetuate the system because it “works” for us, but everyone else is terrorized by it. I have a different outlook now, and I can begin to understand why talking to the police is so risky for most people. I understand too that it is risky for me. The system does not in fact care for me. I am more cautious now. And I desire a system that is more fair - though I have so much more I need to learn, and I need to get more out of my comfort zone to better serve the others most affected by the injustice of our system.
- throwaway_98554 9y ago
  > I grew up in a very privileged white world, with an attitude that I could always talk to the police because they were never interested in me. I felt that there would be unlikely to be an outcome where I got in any real trouble even if I had been breaking the law in some childish but “not actually bad” kind of way. Doing some dumb stunt or smoking a little weed - “nothing serious”. What you describe as the "very privileged white world" sounds exactly how the citizen/police interactions ought to be. It is a fragile balance that has been built and maintained by your society. The way you describe such as legacy is problematic, as people often see 'privilege' as something 'unfair', something to distance ourselves from. And by saying that the correct citizen/police interactions are a privilege, you push for everyone to average down, rather than make a better world for everyone. You should instead focus on making sure everyone has the best chance of having a decent civil society. The best start is by using your everyday language as a way to anchor the correct interaction as the goal, not something to be avoided. Ex: "Last Friday night two officers brought me to my parents. I was a little too 'agitated'. It scared the shit out of me, but they let me go with a warning. I tell you man, I'm happy to have such friendly officers in my city." (<--- anchor it as a goal) "My friend from a different place got in trouble with the police last week. It looks like it's a pattern. Hopefully we'll find what is causing this friction soon and stop this shit." (<--- point out it's an unwanted consequence and that something has to change.)

by joshmn 9y ago

kolbe 9y ago

How do you balance that and obstruction of justice for crimes that you are not a suspect in? Especially ones where your knowledge is urgent and your silence is a public danger.

omegaham 9y ago
I'm sure that there are situations where this is good to consider, but real life isn't a Criminal Minds episode where the lady's slowly getting lowered into the Pit of Misery while the police frantically try to get there in time. If you have important information, it can wait a day while you get your affairs in order. If it really is that urgent, yes, I would say something. Any other time? It can wait.
danenania 9y ago
You can (and should) help out, but with a lawyer present.

mistermann 9y ago

It seems to me that this advice forgets it's own lesson: A policeman/woman can only get you in trouble. In many cases, a copy really does just want to have a 5 minute chat, and if you stonewall them (Am I being detained?), they might decide to exercise their power to get you in trouble, just to return the sentiment of unreasonableness.

jimmywanger 9y ago
Did you not watch the video? Even if you tell the absolute truth, the cops _might_ be able to twist that against you somehow. Don't give them any ammunition. Sure, if the cop wants to be a hard-ass, let him haul you in. He probably won't because of all the paperwork. The point of the video is that it's the cop's job to try to haul you in. Don't do the cop's job for him - he's much better at it than you are defending your innocence. For an example, watch "My Cousin Vinnie". The sheriff accuses the defendant of shooting a clerk. The defendant responds incredulously "I shot him?" How do you think that reads in court in a deadpan voice?
dmix 9y ago
Right, telling someone to "say the bare minimum" doesn't mean saying nothing at all and treating the officer poorly. Don't act superior because you happen to know your rights, that's basically as bad as being a two-bit criminal in their eyes. Police don't recruit people based on their sensitivity and grasp of common sense, they are people who enjoy the power dynamic the job gives them and for the most part 99% of the time people go out of their way to respect them (for better or worse) and whenever someone doesn't they over react, like a slighted bully in elementary school. Police culture and training promotes this toxic type of no-common sense approach to handling situations, it trains them to be assertive and the 'alpha-male' in all situations, so any type of rebellion against this idea to them is treated as sacrosanct, at least by the average (aka dumb) officer. And yes, for the most part if you are respectful and non-confrontational you won't have any problems. Some people reject this entirely and think they have rights so they should assert them always. But ultimately these are social situations in which one party is given a significant imbalance of power, that goes well beyond the rational/common-sense "I didnt do anything wrong" context, and which goes well beyond the rights you do actually have - in a courtroom in front a judge. The simple fact is police can make your life miserable without crossing any legal/employer boundaries. The bureaucracy, political culture, and power structures allow this to happen. So if you care about this try to focus your energy on changing politics, police training, and the accepted police culture at the society/community level. In individual moments it's probably not worth the energy. But that said, never ever say anything you don't want to reveal to a police officer, even (or especially) if you broke a law, and never trust a single thing they say about it being "the best thing for you to do at this moment". Be polite and listen to what they say in terms of behaviours, but if you are pressed repeatedly after not wanting to say something, then say you want a lawyer present because you don't feel comfortable in this situation. And yes sometimes that requires you being a "dick" to be assertive, but that's because the police have an incentive to make you feel that way. As long as you are a good citizen otherwise they have nothing on you and the truth will come out in court, if they can prove you did anything to get to that point.

Simon_says 9y ago

I've heard this advice a lot. Have you ever followed this in real life? How did it work out for you? I worry that cops have the potential to make my life very unpleasant if I annoy them.

scarecrowbob 9y ago
Yeah, like, it's as easy as not responding with an answer when they ask you if you know how fast you were going. It's not that hard and if you're polite and you're white you're probably going to be okay.
gumby 9y ago
"I'm just asking to see if you tell the truth. If you don't answer I know you're guilty". And end up arrested.
- Simon_says 9y ago
  Cops don't decide guilt or innocence. That doesn't make any sense.
  - gumby 9y ago
    Ever been arrested? It's no fun, and there's understandably a presumption by pretty much all concerned that the cop is telling the truth and the accused perp is not. What you say is indeed how the law is written, sure, but the truth on the ground is different.
csomar 9y ago
Who is annoying who? You are not required to answer any question. You might as well be non-polite too (I'm not suggesting it).
- Simon_says 9y ago
  Well, in my philosophy, the guy with the gun and the legal authority to arrest is the one who gets to decide who's annoying, unfortunately.

TaylorAlexander 9y ago

I grew up in a very privileged white world, with an attitude that I could always talk to the police because they were never interested in me. I felt that there would be unlikely to be an outcome where I got in any real trouble even if I had been breaking the law in some childish but “not actually bad” kind of way. Doing some dumb stunt or smoking a little weed - “nothing serious”. A friend from a different place helped me see that in so many ways that attitude was only one I could hold from my position of extreme privilege. The world was in a sense made for me, or rather people like me. As a “normal” white male the system had built-in leniency. White judges would “understand I was a good kid” who “meant no harm”. The law had a built in amount of forgiveness for me. I could risk doing dumb things and still talk to police. For everyone who isn’t amongst the class this world was build for, the reality is very different. Even my outlook was a fantasy that may not always hold true, but for others there is not even the comfort of that belief. People like me who are comfortable will perpetuate the system because it “works” for us, but everyone else is terrorized by it. I have a different outlook now, and I can begin to understand why talking to the police is so risky for most people. I understand too that it is risky for me. The system does not in fact care for me. I am more cautious now. And I desire a system that is more fair - though I have so much more I need to learn, and I need to get more out of my comfort zone to better serve the others most affected by the injustice of our system.

throwaway_98554 9y ago
> I grew up in a very privileged white world, with an attitude that I could always talk to the police because they were never interested in me. I felt that there would be unlikely to be an outcome where I got in any real trouble even if I had been breaking the law in some childish but “not actually bad” kind of way. Doing some dumb stunt or smoking a little weed - “nothing serious”. What you describe as the "very privileged white world" sounds exactly how the citizen/police interactions ought to be. It is a fragile balance that has been built and maintained by your society. The way you describe such as legacy is problematic, as people often see 'privilege' as something 'unfair', something to distance ourselves from. And by saying that the correct citizen/police interactions are a privilege, you push for everyone to average down, rather than make a better world for everyone. You should instead focus on making sure everyone has the best chance of having a decent civil society. The best start is by using your everyday language as a way to anchor the correct interaction as the goal, not something to be avoided. Ex: "Last Friday night two officers brought me to my parents. I was a little too 'agitated'. It scared the shit out of me, but they let me go with a warning. I tell you man, I'm happy to have such friendly officers in my city." (<--- anchor it as a goal) "My friend from a different place got in trouble with the police last week. It looks like it's a pattern. Hopefully we'll find what is causing this friction soon and stop this shit." (<--- point out it's an unwanted consequence and that something has to change.)