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> When reviewing the games it is hard for Go players not to talk about 'intent' and 'planning'. An interesting point. Of course the AI is not planning with int

by jmmcd 9y ago

> When reviewing the games it is hard for Go players not to talk about 'intent' and 'planning'. An interesting point. Of course the AI is not planning with intent, but the language is useful. But it IS seeing that if it does X, then the opponent is likely to do Y, which will allow it to do Z. And note that when we see a human player playing X, we say he/she is planning Z, but in reality that's not quite true. What's happening is just the same: he/she is expecting Y, which will allow Z. The process is not so different.

BenoitP 9y ago
In the spectrum between "continuous" and "discrete", I wonder where the chess problem lies. AlphaZero learning from zero hard coded behaviors, and following the description of exploring all the paths one might put it close to being continuous. The thing is, AlphaZero shines by aggressively not exploring lots of paths. So there must be some kind of abstraction it relies on to filter theses paths; and this represents some sort of local minima of the topology of the problem. I'd be very interested in knowing if some rules can emerge from this. And if it can be extracted from the AlphaZero internal model. Hopefully rules that can be interpreted by humans. It could be measured by: what percentage of play decisions can be reproduced with a rule expressed with under 150 symbols? Both for chess moves themselves, and for a path-pruning strategy. I think in the future explainable AI will be a standard part of the AI/ML stacks. The DARPA launched recently a program titled just like this [1]. They talk about deep learning; but I'd be very interested if some results can be had with Reinforcement Learning. [1] https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelligence https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelli...
uoaei 9y ago
>Of course the AI is not planning with intent Isn't it, though? It has an intuition built up from the memory of millions of games it's played before. It knows that one step now leads to a good situation later. What other definition of "intent" can you use where AZ's playstyle doesn't fit the criteria? And does having intent even mean anything when the goal is to win? If I intend to pursue a certain specific action plan, is that somehow better or more appropriate to the game than playing with infinite flexibility wrt the possible trajectories of the game through state space?
- cyberpunk0 9y ago
  That "intuition" is basically guessing. Machine learning is just a new form if brute force
  - apricot 9y ago
    Only in the sense that anything at all is just a form of brute force.
- jmmcd 9y ago
  > And does having intent even mean anything when the goal is to win? I think "intent" implies consciousness (and so, when we say that a spider intends something, we are using the term metaphorically), but probably this is one of the many cases in AI where it's not worth fighting over the definition. Can a machine be conscious, can it have "real" intent, etc -- can a submarine swim.

by jmmcd 9y ago

BenoitP 9y ago

In the spectrum between "continuous" and "discrete", I wonder where the chess problem lies. AlphaZero learning from zero hard coded behaviors, and following the description of exploring all the paths one might put it close to being continuous. The thing is, AlphaZero shines by aggressively not exploring lots of paths. So there must be some kind of abstraction it relies on to filter theses paths; and this represents some sort of local minima of the topology of the problem. I'd be very interested in knowing if some rules can emerge from this. And if it can be extracted from the AlphaZero internal model. Hopefully rules that can be interpreted by humans. It could be measured by: what percentage of play decisions can be reproduced with a rule expressed with under 150 symbols? Both for chess moves themselves, and for a path-pruning strategy. I think in the future explainable AI will be a standard part of the AI/ML stacks. The DARPA launched recently a program titled just like this [1]. They talk about deep learning; but I'd be very interested if some results can be had with Reinforcement Learning. [1] https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelligence https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelli...

uoaei 9y ago

>Of course the AI is not planning with intent Isn't it, though? It has an intuition built up from the memory of millions of games it's played before. It knows that one step now leads to a good situation later. What other definition of "intent" can you use where AZ's playstyle doesn't fit the criteria? And does having intent even mean anything when the goal is to win? If I intend to pursue a certain specific action plan, is that somehow better or more appropriate to the game than playing with infinite flexibility wrt the possible trajectories of the game through state space?

cyberpunk0 9y ago
That "intuition" is basically guessing. Machine learning is just a new form if brute force
- apricot 9y ago
  Only in the sense that anything at all is just a form of brute force.
jmmcd 9y ago
> And does having intent even mean anything when the goal is to win? I think "intent" implies consciousness (and so, when we say that a spider intends something, we are using the term metaphorically), but probably this is one of the many cases in AI where it's not worth fighting over the definition. Can a machine be conscious, can it have "real" intent, etc -- can a submarine swim.