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From what I gather of this article I should be siding with rappler but I can't help but strongly dislike rappler for being part of facebook's effort to destroy

From what I gather of this article I should be siding with rappler but I can't help but strongly dislike rappler for being part of facebook's effort to destroy the internet with their internet.org thing. I also have a hard time having sympathy for a news outlet that choose to live inside facebook and then complains for having to deal with facebook's shenanigans. You should know better than that and you kinda deserve what happens to you when you choose to be subservient to a global master. On the other hand this Duterte guy seems to be the usual violent dictator kind and there is no way I can get behind that. I guess it is a story of two evils, one involved in violence and death but limited to a national local reach and the other empowering the first while having deep global reach and influence on a third of the world population. Reading this was informative and I've learned about something I was not aware of but this leaves me in an incomfortable place where I feel powerless to help and unhappy to choose the 'right' side. I wish we could get rid of facebook, this thing is epitome of everything wrong in our western world.

hux_ 9y ago
The news orgs have discovered placing 10th grade problem sets on the desks of 2nd graders is very lucrative. It's what the Rush Limbaugh and Jon Oliver types do day in day out (and if you are observant with zero long term impact). All the news orgs are doing it too and they will never regain the trust they once had. Journalism was never about making people feel helpless. Today's journalism is about making people feel helpless for profit. So my advice don't read stuff that's above your grade level.
- ByThyGrace 9y ago
  I've always perceived how news outlets use fear for driving demand for more news, but this is the first time I read about them using helplessness, and it's intriguing. And you sound like you have looked into this. Is there any relevant publication piece that goes deeper into this rationale?
- manmal 9y ago
  Very thoughtful comment, thank you. What do you refer to as „grade level“? Political knowledge, personal range of power, personal sense of empowerment, or psych. ability to deal with hardship?
  - evgen 9y ago
    It is probably a reference to nuance and the fact that the real world is complicated, with multiple competing interests and perspectives. Children learn history in lessons that often have an implicit good-guys/bad-guys story hidden beneath it, while educated adults tend to be able to handle stories that have fewer good guys and bad guys and mostly just a bunch of guys pursuing their own self-interest within a particular environment that provides a specific set of available options. The problem is that the latter sort of lessons involve more cognitive effort and do not lead you to easy answers that make you feel like you are a part of 'the good guys.' John Oliver, much like Rush Limbaugh, tells simple stories of the former variety; stripped of nuance and complications that are intended to lead the recipient to a specific and obvious solution or outcome.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      I'd relate it to the strong emergence of rage politics. Rage seems to transmit and spread much faster than any other type of meme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
    - manmal 9y ago
      This sounds presumptuous to me. People sometimes think that their perspective is better/more mature/clever/correct, while it is just.. different. They divide people into levels/classes in order to put themselves into the highest class. Given the high complexity of the world, any model falls apart if you look at it hard enough.
    - libertyEQ 9y ago
      As an avid listener to both, Limbaugh is quite a bit more manipulative. I say that as a life-long Republican. Edit: I should add that Limbaugh demonstrates an ability to use logic and analyze topics that makes me think he is being intentionally deceitful, mostly by leaving out relevant facts.
- defo_nonconvex 9y ago
  How does Oliver encourage helplessness? There's often a direct call-to-action at the end of particularly pointed segments, from contacting local representatives to the more frivolous hashtags for e.g. Phillip Morris. While I have issues with his style, the targets are usually well chosen. With regards to your analogy...you would not have much luck encouraging a 2nd grader to improve their reading comprehension beyond 2nd grade by telling them to stick to a 2nd grade level of reading.
  - cat199 9y ago
    please - oliver is on the so-called-left end of the false dichotomy spectrum, whereas limbaugh is on the so-called-right end. both espouse a faux-popularism rooted in arguing against evil strawmen that lacks nuance and always slants towards greater centralized, large-entity control of society.
    - defo_nonconvex 9y ago
      False equivalence. There's a legitimate argument that allowing one media group to stealthily control local media markets creates potential for mass misinformation. Or that allowing tobacco companies to litigate against entire nations health initiatives is a bad idea. Both are large entities wanting to steer society into alignment with their profit motive. It's not nearly similar in lack of to calling women prostitutes and sluts for advocating that health insurance should cover female contraception. Or calling 13 years old girls, "dogs". It's not to do with left and right. It's to do with a basic sense of civility.
  - creaghpatr 9y ago
    Oliver’s segments often climax with the host desperately sputtering “its 2016 for Christ sakes!!!” His whole brand is pessimistic cynicism.
    - nindalf 9y ago
      The person you replied to gave 2 specific examples of Oliver making calls to action. If you're going to refute that point, you need to provide examples as well, not just vague assertions. Remember, the meat of Oliver's show is the 15-20 minute segment that is well researched, credits sources and contains a call to action at the end. The most famous example is probably Oliver's video about Net Neutrality 2 years ago galvanised support for it and is used even today to explain NN to laymen. Its absurd to claim that the show promotes cynicism when Oliver always exhorts his viewers to do _something_. If you're objecting to a "its 2016!" at the end of a throwaway 30-second joke then you're being too sensitive IMO.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"It's what the Rush Limbaugh and Jon Oliver types do day in day out (and if you are observant with zero long term impact)." Political satire is very different from actual news journalism. I'm not sure why you are conflating the two. >"Today's journalism is about making people feel helpless for profit." The news media selling anxiety and fear is not a recent development. There's even a very old newsrooms adage that states "If it bleeds it leads."
jister 9y ago
>> On the other hand this Duterte guy seems to be the usual violent dictator kind and there is no way I can get behind that. An actress twitted that Duterte is a psychopath and his response was: "I leave her to her Constitutional right to free expression. She should enjoy that". Dictator right? Some of Duterte's dictatorship plan include: 1. Federalism so that power can be spread throughout the country not in one place only 2. Freedom of Information
- anon1385 9y ago
  For those reading this thread who aren't aware of what's happening in the Philippines, this is the guy that you are defending: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/30/rodrigo-duterte-vows-to-kill-3-million-drug-addicts-and-likens-himself-to-hitler https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/30/rodrigo-dutert... >Rodrigo Duterte vows to kill 3 million drug addicts and likens himself to Hitler
  - jister 9y ago
    For those who are only relying their information on the internet and who are not physically present in the Philippines that's a rhetoric.
    - cyberpunk0 9y ago
      Mass murder is mass murder even if a populace is brainwashed, though I would would wager when you have death squads wandering around and use the cover of drugs to take out political opponents to gain power most people would side with you out of fear anyway, like most oppressive dictatorships. People like you are disgusting, you want to support such mass murder on genocidal levels fine but don't be surprised when people shun you. If it we're up to me you should be the one getting murdered for supporting this shit rather than all the innocents killed so far and pending due to fucking chemicals.
      - jister 9y ago
        People who have not been in the Philippines and are saying things that they don't know are just plain ignorant. For you to even accuse me of being disgusting just proves how naive you are about me and my country.
TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
> I also have a hard time having sympathy for a news outlet that choose to live inside facebook and then complains for having to deal with facebook's shenanigans This is like complaining about anticapitalists participating in capitalism. Just as capitalism is society here, so too is Facebook basically the Internet in Philippines. There isn’t really a choice.
- RyanZAG 9y ago
  Isn't he more complaining about capitalists participating in capitalism until other people make more money than them, and only then becoming anticapitalists? It's not a group that has always been anti-Facebook. It's a group that has been on the inside pushing Facebook for a long time until other groups co-opted Facebook to push an agenda they don't like. Now they want Facebook to silence those people. They're closer to crony-capitalists who like capitalism as long as it benefits them, and then want to pass regulations keeping everyone else out.
  - norlys 9y ago
    Yeah, because they on Facebook's side as long as it didn't seem to be threatening human rights for them. Don't assume anyone not living in your cultural area has the same attitude against facebook on the spot. The Philippines were new to it, and Rappler now learned how dangerous it can be the hard way.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    What do you mean by 'pushing Facebook'? Is someone with a blog 'pushing Blogspot'? I'm guessing they started on Facebook because it's free and that's where people are. You seem to be judging it like a startup whose primary aim is profit.
    - RyanZAG 9y ago
      As stated by bigbugbag above: > I can't help but strongly dislike rappler for being part of facebook's effort to destroy the internet with their internet.org thing They weren't just users of Facebook. They were involved more deeply in Facebook and spreading Facebook. https://www.rappler.com/technology/87234-rappler-smart-communications-internet-org-facebook https://www.rappler.com/technology/87234-rappler-smart-commu...
doggacula 9y ago
>I wish we could get rid of >facebook, this thing is >epitome of everything wrong >in our western world. Well, if facebook is really epitome of everything, what's wrong in the Western World, then it (Western World) is doing quite well.

hux_ 9y ago

The news orgs have discovered placing 10th grade problem sets on the desks of 2nd graders is very lucrative. It's what the Rush Limbaugh and Jon Oliver types do day in day out (and if you are observant with zero long term impact). All the news orgs are doing it too and they will never regain the trust they once had. Journalism was never about making people feel helpless. Today's journalism is about making people feel helpless for profit. So my advice don't read stuff that's above your grade level.

ByThyGrace 9y ago
I've always perceived how news outlets use fear for driving demand for more news, but this is the first time I read about them using helplessness, and it's intriguing. And you sound like you have looked into this. Is there any relevant publication piece that goes deeper into this rationale?
manmal 9y ago
Very thoughtful comment, thank you. What do you refer to as „grade level“? Political knowledge, personal range of power, personal sense of empowerment, or psych. ability to deal with hardship?
- evgen 9y ago
  It is probably a reference to nuance and the fact that the real world is complicated, with multiple competing interests and perspectives. Children learn history in lessons that often have an implicit good-guys/bad-guys story hidden beneath it, while educated adults tend to be able to handle stories that have fewer good guys and bad guys and mostly just a bunch of guys pursuing their own self-interest within a particular environment that provides a specific set of available options. The problem is that the latter sort of lessons involve more cognitive effort and do not lead you to easy answers that make you feel like you are a part of 'the good guys.' John Oliver, much like Rush Limbaugh, tells simple stories of the former variety; stripped of nuance and complications that are intended to lead the recipient to a specific and obvious solution or outcome.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    I'd relate it to the strong emergence of rage politics. Rage seems to transmit and spread much faster than any other type of meme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
  - manmal 9y ago
    This sounds presumptuous to me. People sometimes think that their perspective is better/more mature/clever/correct, while it is just.. different. They divide people into levels/classes in order to put themselves into the highest class. Given the high complexity of the world, any model falls apart if you look at it hard enough.
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    As an avid listener to both, Limbaugh is quite a bit more manipulative. I say that as a life-long Republican. Edit: I should add that Limbaugh demonstrates an ability to use logic and analyze topics that makes me think he is being intentionally deceitful, mostly by leaving out relevant facts.
defo_nonconvex 9y ago
How does Oliver encourage helplessness? There's often a direct call-to-action at the end of particularly pointed segments, from contacting local representatives to the more frivolous hashtags for e.g. Phillip Morris. While I have issues with his style, the targets are usually well chosen. With regards to your analogy...you would not have much luck encouraging a 2nd grader to improve their reading comprehension beyond 2nd grade by telling them to stick to a 2nd grade level of reading.
- cat199 9y ago
  please - oliver is on the so-called-left end of the false dichotomy spectrum, whereas limbaugh is on the so-called-right end. both espouse a faux-popularism rooted in arguing against evil strawmen that lacks nuance and always slants towards greater centralized, large-entity control of society.
  - defo_nonconvex 9y ago
    False equivalence. There's a legitimate argument that allowing one media group to stealthily control local media markets creates potential for mass misinformation. Or that allowing tobacco companies to litigate against entire nations health initiatives is a bad idea. Both are large entities wanting to steer society into alignment with their profit motive. It's not nearly similar in lack of to calling women prostitutes and sluts for advocating that health insurance should cover female contraception. Or calling 13 years old girls, "dogs". It's not to do with left and right. It's to do with a basic sense of civility.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  Oliver’s segments often climax with the host desperately sputtering “its 2016 for Christ sakes!!!” His whole brand is pessimistic cynicism.
  - nindalf 9y ago
    The person you replied to gave 2 specific examples of Oliver making calls to action. If you're going to refute that point, you need to provide examples as well, not just vague assertions. Remember, the meat of Oliver's show is the 15-20 minute segment that is well researched, credits sources and contains a call to action at the end. The most famous example is probably Oliver's video about Net Neutrality 2 years ago galvanised support for it and is used even today to explain NN to laymen. Its absurd to claim that the show promotes cynicism when Oliver always exhorts his viewers to do _something_. If you're objecting to a "its 2016!" at the end of a throwaway 30-second joke then you're being too sensitive IMO.
bogomipz 9y ago
>"It's what the Rush Limbaugh and Jon Oliver types do day in day out (and if you are observant with zero long term impact)." Political satire is very different from actual news journalism. I'm not sure why you are conflating the two. >"Today's journalism is about making people feel helpless for profit." The news media selling anxiety and fear is not a recent development. There's even a very old newsrooms adage that states "If it bleeds it leads."

jister 9y ago

>> On the other hand this Duterte guy seems to be the usual violent dictator kind and there is no way I can get behind that. An actress twitted that Duterte is a psychopath and his response was: "I leave her to her Constitutional right to free expression. She should enjoy that". Dictator right? Some of Duterte's dictatorship plan include: 1. Federalism so that power can be spread throughout the country not in one place only 2. Freedom of Information

anon1385 9y ago
For those reading this thread who aren't aware of what's happening in the Philippines, this is the guy that you are defending: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/30/rodrigo-duterte-vows-to-kill-3-million-drug-addicts-and-likens-himself-to-hitler https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/30/rodrigo-dutert... >Rodrigo Duterte vows to kill 3 million drug addicts and likens himself to Hitler
- jister 9y ago
  For those who are only relying their information on the internet and who are not physically present in the Philippines that's a rhetoric.
  - cyberpunk0 9y ago
    Mass murder is mass murder even if a populace is brainwashed, though I would would wager when you have death squads wandering around and use the cover of drugs to take out political opponents to gain power most people would side with you out of fear anyway, like most oppressive dictatorships. People like you are disgusting, you want to support such mass murder on genocidal levels fine but don't be surprised when people shun you. If it we're up to me you should be the one getting murdered for supporting this shit rather than all the innocents killed so far and pending due to fucking chemicals.
    - jister 9y ago
      People who have not been in the Philippines and are saying things that they don't know are just plain ignorant. For you to even accuse me of being disgusting just proves how naive you are about me and my country.

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

> I also have a hard time having sympathy for a news outlet that choose to live inside facebook and then complains for having to deal with facebook's shenanigans This is like complaining about anticapitalists participating in capitalism. Just as capitalism is society here, so too is Facebook basically the Internet in Philippines. There isn’t really a choice.

RyanZAG 9y ago
Isn't he more complaining about capitalists participating in capitalism until other people make more money than them, and only then becoming anticapitalists? It's not a group that has always been anti-Facebook. It's a group that has been on the inside pushing Facebook for a long time until other groups co-opted Facebook to push an agenda they don't like. Now they want Facebook to silence those people. They're closer to crony-capitalists who like capitalism as long as it benefits them, and then want to pass regulations keeping everyone else out.
- norlys 9y ago
  Yeah, because they on Facebook's side as long as it didn't seem to be threatening human rights for them. Don't assume anyone not living in your cultural area has the same attitude against facebook on the spot. The Philippines were new to it, and Rappler now learned how dangerous it can be the hard way.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  What do you mean by 'pushing Facebook'? Is someone with a blog 'pushing Blogspot'? I'm guessing they started on Facebook because it's free and that's where people are. You seem to be judging it like a startup whose primary aim is profit.
  - RyanZAG 9y ago
    As stated by bigbugbag above: > I can't help but strongly dislike rappler for being part of facebook's effort to destroy the internet with their internet.org thing They weren't just users of Facebook. They were involved more deeply in Facebook and spreading Facebook. https://www.rappler.com/technology/87234-rappler-smart-communications-internet-org-facebook https://www.rappler.com/technology/87234-rappler-smart-commu...

doggacula 9y ago

>I wish we could get rid of >facebook, this thing is >epitome of everything wrong >in our western world. Well, if facebook is really epitome of everything, what's wrong in the Western World, then it (Western World) is doing quite well.