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3 years ago German police officer /u/krautcop posted on reddit about his opinion on why police violence is much higher in the US than in Germany. [1] This might

by foepys 9y ago

3 years ago German police officer /u/krautcop posted on reddit about his opinion on why police violence is much higher in the US than in Germany. [1] This might open a new perspective to some people. 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2dgwkp/what_makes_american_police_use_deadly_force_much/cjpgcbe/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2dgwkp/what_makes_a...

tomalpha 9y ago
That is an excellent, well thought out and well written post. It’s not short but it’s well worth a read. I think he pretty much nails it. He also manages to be reasonably objective which can be tough for someone close to the subject matter. To summarize crudely, through the lens of my own biases and in a way that doesn’t do it justice at all (no really, go read it in full): - Police in Germany don’t have to shoot first or have twitchy trigger fingers because it’s so unlikely anyone will shoot at them. So they don’t. - The problems in the US are systemic, deep rooted in the culture of the society not just the police, and gun availability doesn’t cause the deaths but does significantly exacerbate the problem.
- sjg007 9y ago
  It's highly unlikely anyone will shoot at a cop in the USA as well, especially during a traffic stop.
  - foepys 9y ago
    There are enough videos on the internet where exactly this happens to US officers. I don't want to link any because they are often very graphic but you can find one in 10 seconds on youtube. I dare you to find a single article about something like this from Germany or even the EU.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      Just because there are videos and it happens doesn’t mean they happen enough for cops to be afraid.
      - tomalpha 9y ago
        I think the point being made is that however rare it might be in the US that it’s even rarer to the point of non-existent in Germany (or the UK etc). Edit: things don’t have to be very common for people to have deep seated fears and want to try and avoid it (however much they might or might not be overreacting doing so).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
maxxxxx 9y ago
Nice read. Some personal experience: in the 1980s during my mandatory time at German military I was military police. At things like Oktoberfest we had to work with the American MPs to deal with drunk American soldiers when they were causing trouble . One thing that was very noticeable that we were trained to deflect violence and retreat if possible to call more people. The MPs on the other hand had more of an attitude to directly confront the situation and quickly resolve problems with force if necessary. They seemed to take things more personally and didn't want to let the bad guys win. Another thing I noticed was at a shooting range. We had to account for each bullet whereas the Americans would hand out piles of bullets liberally. I also never even thought about somebody having a gun whereas in the US I guess this fear is always there. This is only my personal experience but after working with the MPs and now living in the US I think part of it is the competitiveness in the US. People want to win. That includes cops who want to win over their adversaries and not look like losers.
imjasonmiller 9y ago
Interesting, thanks for sharing! There was a video on how Germany and The Netherlands tackle cross-border crime. They ride in pairs, one German, one Dutch. What the Dutch officer highlighted was that the German officer was allowed to reach for his gun, hold it to his/her side and put it back without reporting he/she did so. This would not be allowed in The Netherlands and one would have to report that this was done. Reaching for your gun is a big thing here. Unfortunately the video is in Dutch: https://youtu.be/v4TyJUEMPVU https://youtu.be/v4TyJUEMPVU (4:40) If you need a translation of certain parts, just ask.
_ph_ 9y ago
Just to show some numbers, in the last 10 years, there are about 50 shots fired by the police per year for whole Germany, killing less than 10 persons per year. The precise numbers can be found in the table here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_...
austincheney 9y ago
I just read that opinion and it is pretty solid, but I can offer a more precise correction for his opinion of American behaviors. Yes, he is correct about attitudes regarding individuality. According to the Geert Hofstede indexes the US is the most individualistic country in the world by a lot. As an American who has lived outside the US for years it isn't this individualism that is to blame. The actual behavioral culprit is thoughts on security. The US is a generally safe place and the wealthiest nation in the world, but the attitudes on security here are more similar to those of third-world countries I have live in. Americans have a cultural fear of injury whether that injury is a physical harm, disrespect, or an injustice. This was one of the huge selling points when Trump was campaigning for President. He really capitalized on people's fear of terrorism and ISIS. No matter how remote and irrational those things are these were real fears people had. These security fears are such a huge deal to American culture that it explains our use of military and politics to such an extent that the US always scores relatively low on the Transparency International Index considering the actual low corruption and efficiency of government services.

by foepys 9y ago

tomalpha 9y ago

That is an excellent, well thought out and well written post. It’s not short but it’s well worth a read. I think he pretty much nails it. He also manages to be reasonably objective which can be tough for someone close to the subject matter. To summarize crudely, through the lens of my own biases and in a way that doesn’t do it justice at all (no really, go read it in full): - Police in Germany don’t have to shoot first or have twitchy trigger fingers because it’s so unlikely anyone will shoot at them. So they don’t. - The problems in the US are systemic, deep rooted in the culture of the society not just the police, and gun availability doesn’t cause the deaths but does significantly exacerbate the problem.

sjg007 9y ago
It's highly unlikely anyone will shoot at a cop in the USA as well, especially during a traffic stop.
- foepys 9y ago
  There are enough videos on the internet where exactly this happens to US officers. I don't want to link any because they are often very graphic but you can find one in 10 seconds on youtube. I dare you to find a single article about something like this from Germany or even the EU.
  - sjg007 9y ago
    Just because there are videos and it happens doesn’t mean they happen enough for cops to be afraid.
    - tomalpha 9y ago
      I think the point being made is that however rare it might be in the US that it’s even rarer to the point of non-existent in Germany (or the UK etc). Edit: things don’t have to be very common for people to have deep seated fears and want to try and avoid it (however much they might or might not be overreacting doing so).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

maxxxxx 9y ago

Nice read. Some personal experience: in the 1980s during my mandatory time at German military I was military police. At things like Oktoberfest we had to work with the American MPs to deal with drunk American soldiers when they were causing trouble . One thing that was very noticeable that we were trained to deflect violence and retreat if possible to call more people. The MPs on the other hand had more of an attitude to directly confront the situation and quickly resolve problems with force if necessary. They seemed to take things more personally and didn't want to let the bad guys win. Another thing I noticed was at a shooting range. We had to account for each bullet whereas the Americans would hand out piles of bullets liberally. I also never even thought about somebody having a gun whereas in the US I guess this fear is always there. This is only my personal experience but after working with the MPs and now living in the US I think part of it is the competitiveness in the US. People want to win. That includes cops who want to win over their adversaries and not look like losers.

imjasonmiller 9y ago

Interesting, thanks for sharing! There was a video on how Germany and The Netherlands tackle cross-border crime. They ride in pairs, one German, one Dutch. What the Dutch officer highlighted was that the German officer was allowed to reach for his gun, hold it to his/her side and put it back without reporting he/she did so. This would not be allowed in The Netherlands and one would have to report that this was done. Reaching for your gun is a big thing here. Unfortunately the video is in Dutch: https://youtu.be/v4TyJUEMPVU https://youtu.be/v4TyJUEMPVU (4:40) If you need a translation of certain parts, just ask.

_ph_ 9y ago

Just to show some numbers, in the last 10 years, there are about 50 shots fired by the police per year for whole Germany, killing less than 10 persons per year. The precise numbers can be found in the table here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_...

austincheney 9y ago

I just read that opinion and it is pretty solid, but I can offer a more precise correction for his opinion of American behaviors. Yes, he is correct about attitudes regarding individuality. According to the Geert Hofstede indexes the US is the most individualistic country in the world by a lot. As an American who has lived outside the US for years it isn't this individualism that is to blame. The actual behavioral culprit is thoughts on security. The US is a generally safe place and the wealthiest nation in the world, but the attitudes on security here are more similar to those of third-world countries I have live in. Americans have a cultural fear of injury whether that injury is a physical harm, disrespect, or an injustice. This was one of the huge selling points when Trump was campaigning for President. He really capitalized on people's fear of terrorism and ISIS. No matter how remote and irrational those things are these were real fears people had. These security fears are such a huge deal to American culture that it explains our use of military and politics to such an extent that the US always scores relatively low on the Transparency International Index considering the actual low corruption and efficiency of government services.