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I have a bitcoin debit card. I use it to pay all of these things. Your argument is akin to a person in the US saying that a person from Europe using their vis

I have a bitcoin debit card. I use it to pay all of these things. Your argument is akin to a person in the US saying that a person from Europe using their visa card, isn't using real money, because you don't control it.

leshow 9y ago
Maybe I'm not clear on how a btc debit works but that seems foolish. Maybe a few years ago when it could actually function as a medium of exchange. Now the transaction fees are exorbitant.
- Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  > I'm not clear on how a btc debit works but that seems foolish. Not sure there's any response possible for that one. "I don't know how it works, but I think it's dumb." > Now the transaction fees are exorbitant. Every standard sized bitcoin transaction bar the past three days (and those will too), that people paid over 5c for has been committed to the blockchain.
  - leshow 9y ago
    Either pay a ridiculous fee or wait a ridiculous amount of time for confirmation? Replace by fee is a thing, as long as the tx is unconfirmed it could be replaced. You're effectively saying the wait time is now 3 days unless you want to pay a fee of several dollars. So that rules out most transactions. How do you pay for anything given those restrictions?
    - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      By aggregating commits to the blockchain, and doing them in batches.
      - leshow 9y ago
        Sorry but non of this sounds very convenient or useable. It seems like you just really like btc so you're making concessions on usability.
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        > Sorry but non of this sounds very convenient or useable Then you don't understand how bitcoin works, so it's probably best you refrain from commenting on bitcoin architecture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=4E3NiDC9i8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=4E3NiDC9i8E
        leshow 9y ago
        You can't explain how your bitcoin debit is usable without paying a high fee or waiting a long time, so I don't know how bitcoin works? I hardly think that's fair. Your responses are practically non-sequiturs. Lightning network hasn't been rolled out yet. It has nothing to do with our conversation.
- AndreKoster 9y ago
  > Now the transaction fees are exorbitant. All the remarks about the skyrocketing fees can be cut short by pointing out that Bitcoin Cash (which is much closer to the Bitcoin described in the white paper than Bitcoin Segwit [BTC]) doesn't have this problem. Just like Satoshi Nakamoto said that the block size limit could be raised once blocks started to get full, the developers of the Bitcoin Cash software also say the current max. block size of 8 MB can be raised if the blocks get full.
  - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
    If you want an alt coin with more capacity than bcash, more decentralised, and faster, use litecoin. It even has atomic swaps with bitcoin. Look at the price. Going bananas.
    - AndreKoster 9y ago
      No, I'm good. Besides, Litecoin's capacity isn't bigger.
      - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        Like i said...
betterunix2 9y ago
What is a Bitcoin debit card? What payment system does that card actually use? Converting BTC to fiat currency on the spot is not really the same thing as using Bitcoin to pay your bills, any more than selling some shares of stock and using the money to buy a house is the same thing as buying a house using shares of stock.
- zik 9y ago
  It's a standard mag stripe card that draws from a Bitcoin account and can be used anywhere. They're quite common.
  - betterunix2 9y ago
    IOW you are not paying with BTC, you are selling BTC for some fiat currency and using the proceeds to make the payment.
    - jcoffland 9y ago
      If I take my US debit card to Europe and buy things there, essentially the same thing happens.
      - Marazan 9y ago
        But you are not paying the European merchant with USD.
        jacquesm 9y ago
        Neither are you paying with USD even if your debit card directly debits your USD account. It's a proxy for paying with USD, just like a bitcoin debit account is a proxy for paying with bitcoin. That the conversion and account adjust ment happen in one currency or another does not mean that currency is directly involved, it is merely a convenient stand-in for the number reflecting your balance, an attribute of it. People think that banks hold their money: they don't. The bank simply owes you your money but they don't hold it for you. What you get in return for your money is a statement from the bank what debt they owe you and a device to convert that debt into goods whenever you feel like it. That device is not the same as the underlying money, it is merely a proxy for your debt. Which you'd find out about in a hurry if your bank ever went under and your card stopped to work.
beefield 9y ago
> I have a bitcoin debit card. I use it to pay all of these things. Your argument is akin to a person in the US saying that a person from Europe using their visa card, isn't using real money, because you don't control it. If the person from Europe comes to US, goes to McDonald's, buys a meal whose price is denominated in USD with his European credit card and tells me he made the purchase with Euro, I would consider that a false statement. To me, he made the purchase in USD, his credit card company just will make the FX conversion for him and accept EUR from him when he pays his credit card bill.
endless1234 9y ago
If you buy a debit card with $1000 on it with an ounce of gold, do you now have a gold debit card?
- AndreKoster 9y ago
  Yes. I think GoldMoney issues those kind of cards.

leshow 9y ago

Maybe I'm not clear on how a btc debit works but that seems foolish. Maybe a few years ago when it could actually function as a medium of exchange. Now the transaction fees are exorbitant.

Frogolocalypse 9y ago
> I'm not clear on how a btc debit works but that seems foolish. Not sure there's any response possible for that one. "I don't know how it works, but I think it's dumb." > Now the transaction fees are exorbitant. Every standard sized bitcoin transaction bar the past three days (and those will too), that people paid over 5c for has been committed to the blockchain.
- leshow 9y ago
  Either pay a ridiculous fee or wait a ridiculous amount of time for confirmation? Replace by fee is a thing, as long as the tx is unconfirmed it could be replaced. You're effectively saying the wait time is now 3 days unless you want to pay a fee of several dollars. So that rules out most transactions. How do you pay for anything given those restrictions?
  - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
    By aggregating commits to the blockchain, and doing them in batches.
    - leshow 9y ago
      Sorry but non of this sounds very convenient or useable. It seems like you just really like btc so you're making concessions on usability.
      - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        > Sorry but non of this sounds very convenient or useable Then you don't understand how bitcoin works, so it's probably best you refrain from commenting on bitcoin architecture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=4E3NiDC9i8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=4E3NiDC9i8E
        leshow 9y ago
        You can't explain how your bitcoin debit is usable without paying a high fee or waiting a long time, so I don't know how bitcoin works? I hardly think that's fair. Your responses are practically non-sequiturs. Lightning network hasn't been rolled out yet. It has nothing to do with our conversation.
AndreKoster 9y ago
> Now the transaction fees are exorbitant. All the remarks about the skyrocketing fees can be cut short by pointing out that Bitcoin Cash (which is much closer to the Bitcoin described in the white paper than Bitcoin Segwit [BTC]) doesn't have this problem. Just like Satoshi Nakamoto said that the block size limit could be raised once blocks started to get full, the developers of the Bitcoin Cash software also say the current max. block size of 8 MB can be raised if the blocks get full.
- Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  If you want an alt coin with more capacity than bcash, more decentralised, and faster, use litecoin. It even has atomic swaps with bitcoin. Look at the price. Going bananas.
  - AndreKoster 9y ago
    No, I'm good. Besides, Litecoin's capacity isn't bigger.
    - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      Like i said...

betterunix2 9y ago

What is a Bitcoin debit card? What payment system does that card actually use? Converting BTC to fiat currency on the spot is not really the same thing as using Bitcoin to pay your bills, any more than selling some shares of stock and using the money to buy a house is the same thing as buying a house using shares of stock.

zik 9y ago
It's a standard mag stripe card that draws from a Bitcoin account and can be used anywhere. They're quite common.
- betterunix2 9y ago
  IOW you are not paying with BTC, you are selling BTC for some fiat currency and using the proceeds to make the payment.
  - jcoffland 9y ago
    If I take my US debit card to Europe and buy things there, essentially the same thing happens.
    - Marazan 9y ago
      But you are not paying the European merchant with USD.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Neither are you paying with USD even if your debit card directly debits your USD account. It's a proxy for paying with USD, just like a bitcoin debit account is a proxy for paying with bitcoin. That the conversion and account adjust ment happen in one currency or another does not mean that currency is directly involved, it is merely a convenient stand-in for the number reflecting your balance, an attribute of it. People think that banks hold their money: they don't. The bank simply owes you your money but they don't hold it for you. What you get in return for your money is a statement from the bank what debt they owe you and a device to convert that debt into goods whenever you feel like it. That device is not the same as the underlying money, it is merely a proxy for your debt. Which you'd find out about in a hurry if your bank ever went under and your card stopped to work.

beefield 9y ago

> I have a bitcoin debit card. I use it to pay all of these things. Your argument is akin to a person in the US saying that a person from Europe using their visa card, isn't using real money, because you don't control it. If the person from Europe comes to US, goes to McDonald's, buys a meal whose price is denominated in USD with his European credit card and tells me he made the purchase with Euro, I would consider that a false statement. To me, he made the purchase in USD, his credit card company just will make the FX conversion for him and accept EUR from him when he pays his credit card bill.

endless1234 9y ago

If you buy a debit card with $1000 on it with an ounce of gold, do you now have a gold debit card?

AndreKoster 9y ago
Yes. I think GoldMoney issues those kind of cards.