3 ms·

A Medical Doctor must have specific training to not harm their patients. An Engineer designs functional things. No reasonable person is going to think that hi

A Medical Doctor must have specific training to not harm their patients. An Engineer designs functional things. No reasonable person is going to think that him calling himself an "Electrical Engineer", which he is, construes that he had specific training in designing traffic infrastructure that doesn't accidentally harm people. Traffic infrastructure is not a nuanced topic full of dangerous pitfalls. He was claiming that he had a background in engineering that is applicable to the subject, so that his viewpoint would not be cast aside. The state wanted to ignore his viewpoint, so they fined him.

takk309 9y ago
I very much disagree with you. While traffic engineering failures may not be as acute as a medical doctor, the effects can be much more expensive and far reaching. For example, let us say that a road has a design speed of 55 mph. That would dictate the maximum curvature of the horizontal alignment. If an engineer chooses to ignore this design speed and makes the corner too tight, there will likely be a crash cluster at this location. The cost to mitigate that kind of mistake could be very expensive and possibly cost multiple lives. Another more extreme, yet more common, example is structural engineering. While the basics of structural engineering are relatively simple the consequences of failure are very high. If a multi-story structure collapses, a lot of people will be injured or killed. That is why it is important to know more than just the basics of what goes into structural engineering. I am not trying to down play the importance of training for medical doctors. I am trying to highlight that engineers need to have training and a regulatory board that is used to track and prove that the training has been completed to an acceptable level. If any yahoo is able to say, "I am an engineer, trust me," how do you prove his credentials? Just like with a medical doctor, you would look up his certification.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > Another more extreme, yet more common, example is structural engineering. We aren't even talking about structural engineering here. We are talking about an electrical engineer submitting comments regarding traffic. The only reason these are related is the word "engineer", which is ambiguous. The contents of this man's letter are not physically acting upon traffic. They were submitted to be considered by a group of "licensed" traffic engineers. The subject does not require the decade of specific education that is required by a medical doctor, or even months of training that is required by an EMT. It's about a traffic light camera, which an electrical engineer would be able to understand significantly better than a layman, making the fact that he is an electrical engineer important to the subject. The state fined him for his claim of being an engineer, defining the word by its context (traffic lights) instead of by its adjective (electrical). The state abused this notion to delegitimize his words, and to disincentivize him commenting in the first place.
  - CalChris 9y ago
    > It's about a traffic light camera, which an electrical engineer would be able to understand significantly better than a layman I would go further and say that as a EE working in the field he would understand this issue better than a traffic engineer would.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      By defining a "traffic engineer" as a title that demands license, we prevent discussion from other people. I am very critical of the idea that a license should be required to discuss the traffic system that we all interact with.
      - takk309 9y ago
        There is nothing preventing you from talking about traffic systems. There are, however, laws preventing you from claiming to be an engineer with expertise in the subject in a public forum.
        thomastjeffery 9y ago
        A man claimed to be an "electrical engineer", and was fined for doing so, because the word "engineer" was taken in context to mean "traffic engineer", which is a licensed title. The issue I take to this is that you must have a recognized title to claim knowledge. This has two problems: 1. People outside of a group of recognition have unnecessary difficulty giving input. This degrades the "public" aspect of the forum. 2. Common words like "engineer" are redefined to have more authority than they do outside the forum. This means that those with broad engineering expertise and knowledge that is applicable to the subject are considered to not have any applicable knowledge or expertise. It may be reasonable to require credentials from someone who is doing the engineering, or someone who makes final decisions. It is not reasonable to require credentials from everyone who uses a noun to describe him or herself. If you want credentials from someone who claims to be an engineer, then you can ask for them. Credentials need not be assumed. There are positions like MD, EMT, Police Officer, etc. that do imply credentials. These titles inherently require trust and respect, so claiming one without credentials is fraudulent. "Engineer" does not fit into that category.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > how do you prove his credentials? You don't. "Engineer" is not broadly considered a claim of authority. It is a claim of knowledge. If I am required to provide credentials whenever I say "engineer", then how, as someone without credentials, am I supposed to express my background? I'll simply choose another word, which will have the exact meaning that "engineer" currently does. Why? Because you redefined the word. The word "engineer" is perfectly adequate in its current state. If you really want to know whether you can trust an engineer in his or her capacity, you will then ask for some credentials, like a degree or state-sponsored license. The fact that anyone can use the word "engineer" to describe him or herself does not in any way detract from that. The reason that MD, EMT, or police officer are different is that every individual who claims that title is treated with authority.
  - slantyyz 9y ago
    >> "Engineer" is not broadly considered a claim of authority. It is a claim of knowledge. Can you explain what you mean by that? The reason why I ask is this - before the process was simplified in Canada, you were required to have your passport application signed by an accredited professional guarantor like a medical doctor, accountant, police officer, engineer (PEng), etc who had known you for a minimum period of time. So in this specific context, an engineer is a special class of person in society (because of the professional body he/she is a member of).
notlob 9y ago
This misses my point. My point is that while I am a "doctor" I am not a physician, and that even though I use the title in other places it's prudent to be very careful about it in a medical setting because it could be misconstrued. Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers while one is using the industrial exemption.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers. I disagree. In this scenario, the state has redefined the meaning of "engineer" in a way that is very detrimental. A Medical Doctor or physician implies with his or her title, authority to practice. The word "engineer" does not carry this implication, nor should it. When I tell people that I am a "Software Engineer", I am expressing years of self-education, nuanced understanding, etc. This title is not misconstrued as having a degree or license, of which I have neither. If I want to claim to have a degree, I will be explicit about it. Calling myself an "engineer" is a very useful way to express the complicated body of knowledge that I possess. If the word suddenly implies credentials, of which I do not possess, I am suddenly considered a fraud. TL;DR You can consider me a fraud by redefining what an "engineer" is, but that doesn't make me one, so please don't redefine engineer. That does not help discourse.
  - notlob 9y ago
    > In this scenario, the state has redefined the meaning of "engineer" in a way that is very detrimental. This is backwards from my perspective. Engineering has long been a licensed profession. It is only recently that a group of people have chosen, for some reason beyond me, to call themselves "software engineers" and avail themselves of the industrial exemption. I'm not a fan but the ship has sailed on that one. > A Medical Doctor or physician implies with his or her title, authority to practice. There are many MDs and DOs that are not licensed by their state boards and they too have to take care with misrepresenting themselves as physicians licensed to practice. The same is true of people using the industrial exemption to practice engineering, one cannot use the industrial exemption to practice before the public. TL;DR from my perspective (PhD in engineering but not an engineer) there is a newer group people who are attempting to redefine what "engineer" means as a profession, and that redefinition relaxes education, experience, and professional conduct standards by quite a bit. I realize that like the Browncoats of Firefly I am on the losing side, and also like the Browncoats I don't like it.

takk309 9y ago

I very much disagree with you. While traffic engineering failures may not be as acute as a medical doctor, the effects can be much more expensive and far reaching. For example, let us say that a road has a design speed of 55 mph. That would dictate the maximum curvature of the horizontal alignment. If an engineer chooses to ignore this design speed and makes the corner too tight, there will likely be a crash cluster at this location. The cost to mitigate that kind of mistake could be very expensive and possibly cost multiple lives. Another more extreme, yet more common, example is structural engineering. While the basics of structural engineering are relatively simple the consequences of failure are very high. If a multi-story structure collapses, a lot of people will be injured or killed. That is why it is important to know more than just the basics of what goes into structural engineering. I am not trying to down play the importance of training for medical doctors. I am trying to highlight that engineers need to have training and a regulatory board that is used to track and prove that the training has been completed to an acceptable level. If any yahoo is able to say, "I am an engineer, trust me," how do you prove his credentials? Just like with a medical doctor, you would look up his certification.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
> Another more extreme, yet more common, example is structural engineering. We aren't even talking about structural engineering here. We are talking about an electrical engineer submitting comments regarding traffic. The only reason these are related is the word "engineer", which is ambiguous. The contents of this man's letter are not physically acting upon traffic. They were submitted to be considered by a group of "licensed" traffic engineers. The subject does not require the decade of specific education that is required by a medical doctor, or even months of training that is required by an EMT. It's about a traffic light camera, which an electrical engineer would be able to understand significantly better than a layman, making the fact that he is an electrical engineer important to the subject. The state fined him for his claim of being an engineer, defining the word by its context (traffic lights) instead of by its adjective (electrical). The state abused this notion to delegitimize his words, and to disincentivize him commenting in the first place.
- CalChris 9y ago
  > It's about a traffic light camera, which an electrical engineer would be able to understand significantly better than a layman I would go further and say that as a EE working in the field he would understand this issue better than a traffic engineer would.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    By defining a "traffic engineer" as a title that demands license, we prevent discussion from other people. I am very critical of the idea that a license should be required to discuss the traffic system that we all interact with.
    - takk309 9y ago
      There is nothing preventing you from talking about traffic systems. There are, however, laws preventing you from claiming to be an engineer with expertise in the subject in a public forum.
      - thomastjeffery 9y ago
        A man claimed to be an "electrical engineer", and was fined for doing so, because the word "engineer" was taken in context to mean "traffic engineer", which is a licensed title. The issue I take to this is that you must have a recognized title to claim knowledge. This has two problems: 1. People outside of a group of recognition have unnecessary difficulty giving input. This degrades the "public" aspect of the forum. 2. Common words like "engineer" are redefined to have more authority than they do outside the forum. This means that those with broad engineering expertise and knowledge that is applicable to the subject are considered to not have any applicable knowledge or expertise. It may be reasonable to require credentials from someone who is doing the engineering, or someone who makes final decisions. It is not reasonable to require credentials from everyone who uses a noun to describe him or herself. If you want credentials from someone who claims to be an engineer, then you can ask for them. Credentials need not be assumed. There are positions like MD, EMT, Police Officer, etc. that do imply credentials. These titles inherently require trust and respect, so claiming one without credentials is fraudulent. "Engineer" does not fit into that category.
thomastjeffery 9y ago
> how do you prove his credentials? You don't. "Engineer" is not broadly considered a claim of authority. It is a claim of knowledge. If I am required to provide credentials whenever I say "engineer", then how, as someone without credentials, am I supposed to express my background? I'll simply choose another word, which will have the exact meaning that "engineer" currently does. Why? Because you redefined the word. The word "engineer" is perfectly adequate in its current state. If you really want to know whether you can trust an engineer in his or her capacity, you will then ask for some credentials, like a degree or state-sponsored license. The fact that anyone can use the word "engineer" to describe him or herself does not in any way detract from that. The reason that MD, EMT, or police officer are different is that every individual who claims that title is treated with authority.
- slantyyz 9y ago
  >> "Engineer" is not broadly considered a claim of authority. It is a claim of knowledge. Can you explain what you mean by that? The reason why I ask is this - before the process was simplified in Canada, you were required to have your passport application signed by an accredited professional guarantor like a medical doctor, accountant, police officer, engineer (PEng), etc who had known you for a minimum period of time. So in this specific context, an engineer is a special class of person in society (because of the professional body he/she is a member of).

notlob 9y ago

This misses my point. My point is that while I am a "doctor" I am not a physician, and that even though I use the title in other places it's prudent to be very careful about it in a medical setting because it could be misconstrued. Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers while one is using the industrial exemption.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
> Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers. I disagree. In this scenario, the state has redefined the meaning of "engineer" in a way that is very detrimental. A Medical Doctor or physician implies with his or her title, authority to practice. The word "engineer" does not carry this implication, nor should it. When I tell people that I am a "Software Engineer", I am expressing years of self-education, nuanced understanding, etc. This title is not misconstrued as having a degree or license, of which I have neither. If I want to claim to have a degree, I will be explicit about it. Calling myself an "engineer" is a very useful way to express the complicated body of knowledge that I possess. If the word suddenly implies credentials, of which I do not possess, I am suddenly considered a fraud. TL;DR You can consider me a fraud by redefining what an "engineer" is, but that doesn't make me one, so please don't redefine engineer. That does not help discourse.
- notlob 9y ago
  > In this scenario, the state has redefined the meaning of "engineer" in a way that is very detrimental. This is backwards from my perspective. Engineering has long been a licensed profession. It is only recently that a group of people have chosen, for some reason beyond me, to call themselves "software engineers" and avail themselves of the industrial exemption. I'm not a fan but the ship has sailed on that one. > A Medical Doctor or physician implies with his or her title, authority to practice. There are many MDs and DOs that are not licensed by their state boards and they too have to take care with misrepresenting themselves as physicians licensed to practice. The same is true of people using the industrial exemption to practice engineering, one cannot use the industrial exemption to practice before the public. TL;DR from my perspective (PhD in engineering but not an engineer) there is a newer group people who are attempting to redefine what "engineer" means as a profession, and that redefinition relaxes education, experience, and professional conduct standards by quite a bit. I realize that like the Browncoats of Firefly I am on the losing side, and also like the Browncoats I don't like it.