7 ms·

"Mozilla ditched Yahoo recently however in favor of Google, two years before the five year contract would be up for renewal. The terms of the new deal with Goog

"Mozilla ditched Yahoo recently however in favor of Google, two years before the five year contract would be up for renewal. The terms of the new deal with Google have not been revealed yet, and it remains to be seen whether this new deal will give Mozilla's revenue another boost in 2017." Apparently Firefox 57 when it is installed tries to switch the users default search engine to Google. Whether it asks for user permission to do so, I am not sure. Do the terms of the deal actually require them to do this?

confounded 9y ago
It did for me.
patall 9y ago
It certainly did not ask for me and just switched from startpage to Google. Also auto-installed the update (against my will) after I had voted to wait a few times, though that might have been autoupdate as it was on my work computer (have heard from others that it was not which I also suspect but I am too lazy to check). Mozilla is certainly losing trust with that, if it weren't for the lack of good alternatives...
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  There is a good alternative called waterfox (yup the name says it all) and of the recent update disabled the dreaded auto update thing trying actively to get rid of your legacy extensions. https://waterfoxproject.org/ https://waterfoxproject.org/
- shostack 9y ago
  The auto update happened to me too and broke all my good extensions including All In One Gestures and NoScript. How do you disable the auto update? For now I've manually installed an older compatible version.
cryptoz 9y ago
A few years ago when Mozilla switched from Google to Yahoo, they updated Firefox on my Mac and changed my default search from Google to Yahoo. It was not a new installation, it was an upgrade, and I was not asked about the switch.
- staktrace 9y ago
  If you don't change the default search engine, then updates to the default search engine will affect you. If you explicitly change the default, then the updates should leave your choice intact.
  - Drdrdrq 9y ago
    As commented elsewhere: not true. I had to change settings (back) on quite a few accounts, so I'm certain of it. And yes, I did have StartPage as default.
    - staktrace 9y ago
      I was slightly off; see callahad's description of the algorithm elsewhere in the thread for a better description of what happens.
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      But you've said what s/he said - you liked the default, but the default changed. That's what you both agree on. Had you not remained on the default search engine, your move would have been retained. This leaves the question of whether a past change first away from the default and then back would have been counted as a choice to be retained or as merely the default.
  - mozillanotnice 9y ago
    I had another provider explicitly set default search engine, but was asked if it could switch to Google during the Ubuntu update to 57. Annoying.
    - 9y ago
deckarep 9y ago
In 2017 who’s still using Yahoo anyway for their search engine?
- neonhomer 9y ago
  I was going to ask the same thing. But also why are people still using Google? I've been using DuckDuckGo for years and only use Google when I'm forced to (like in Chrome on iOS).
  - flavor8 9y ago
    DDG's fine for some kinds of searches, but for search involving you as context (which can be useful) it is obviously not useful.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Because fairly frequently, I'll search for something on DDG, not find what I was expecting, and try on Google as a backup. And because in many people's minds, Google is search.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      I thought the same thing, then I realized there was a significant selection bias: I was only looking at events where half the hypothesis (DDG fails & Google succeeds) is true. For example, how does DDG perform when Google fails?
      - khedoros1 9y ago
        That's true, but I wasn't thinking in that direction. I was just trying to answer "why are people still using Google?". But honestly, if Google doesn't have it (down below whichever ad-driven first results I have to skip), it's a good bet that I'm not going to find it on other search engines either, unless some specific site indexes its own content better than the search engines do (archive.org comes to mind, for some things). Of course, this is all colored by my search style and the topics I'm usually looking for information on.
staktrace 9y ago
It should only try to switch the user's default search engine if the user hasn't explicitly set a default search engine. You can verify this by install a Firefox 56 build from the ftp archive, explicitly changing the default search engine, and then letting it update to Firefox 57.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Drdrdrq 9y ago
  Not true - I had to explicitly remove Google (again) and set StartPage as default on all my installations. I think it happened with 57.0.1 upgrade though.
  - staktrace 9y ago
    Hm, if that's the case, then it's a bug. If you could file a bug at bugzilla.mozilla.org it would be much appreciated. Even though it already happened we can try and ensure it doesn't happen again.
    - catwell 9y ago
      Apparently it is a bug. It works for search engines shipped with Firefox (such as DuckSuckGo) but not for others (such as StartPage of Qwant). See https://twitter.com/gchampeau/status/938757076213518336 https://twitter.com/gchampeau/status/938757076213518336
      - bigbugbag 9y ago
        I have a hard time believing this kind of happy coincidence benefiting their commercial partner could be a bug, it really looks like an intended feature.
      - feelin_googley 9y ago
        It sounds like Mozilla just wants to keep users confined to a pre-approved list of search engines. Are these also business partners with Mozilla, like Google? Here are some other HTTPS-enabled search engines to test. If I am not mistaken all have been mentioned on HN in the past. https://wiby.me https://gigablast.com https://mojeek.com https://unbubble.eu https://ecosia.org https://searx.me https://symbolhound.com https://findx.com
smichel17 9y ago
On my machine it stayed with ddg. shrug
- TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
  Me too.
nine_k 9y ago
It did ask me, and only once, when I updated to 57.01 or something.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
Maybe? It certainly continues to raise the cost to Google for the search traffic provided by Firefox. When Firefox switched to Firefox it boosted Yahoo!'s organic share of search [1], which if it held up at the 2% speculated would represent about (16.8B * 2%) 336M searches in Feb '17 [2] attributable to the Mozilla deal. One would need to work backward from the revenue per thousand (RPM) to see what sort of ROI that gave Yahoo!. The story at the time was that Google walked away from the deal when Mozilla wanted more than they thought their traffic was worth, and now Google is back 2 years before the contract expires makes me wonder if Mozilla was more accurate in the relative value of their ability to generate search traffic. So now I'm curious to see how much Google's traffic acquisition costs have gone up (TAC) with this switch. [1] https://www.digitalreachagency.com/blog/firefox-deal-boosts-yahoo-organic-search/ https://www.digitalreachagency.com/blog/firefox-deal-boosts-... [2] https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Releases-February-2016-US-Desktop-Search-Engine-Rankings https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Releases...
- greglindahl 9y ago
  My handwave for the previous Google deal was that Mozilla was getting paid about 10% of the money Google made from Firefox searches. There's a lot of money there.
  - zerr 9y ago
    How that amount is calculated and how transparent it is (to Mozilla or similar partners)?
- dblohm7 9y ago
  Google did not walk away from Mozilla in 2014. Mozilla walked away from Google.
callahad 9y ago
I'm not privy to the search deal, but my understanding is that this is driven by our internal user research and metrics, which show that a significant number of users have a search engine other than what they prefer or expect. In these cases, users usually choose to directly navigate to their preferred search engine to search, instead of using Firefox access points. That’s a poor user experience, so our focus here is on ensuring users have the defaults they want. The decision tree is roughly: 1. If the custom engine is one of our default options, keep it. 2. If the custom engine was set by an add-on, keep it. 3. If the custom engine uses HTTPS, prompt the user to actively choose by opening about:searchreset, and do not prompt again after the user has made a choice. 4. If the custom engine uses insecure HTTP, silently reset to the default. You can open about:searchreset yourself to see what the prompt looks like. Code at https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a928be5dacc3b544e29c0612b3f8cda6447df802/browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js#2197-2210 https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a928be5dacc3b544...
- adsche 9y ago
  Re 3.: I think that's a terrible promtp. The prompt says, my settings might be outdated and I should switch back to Google as a search engine. What's the reasoning here? Why is implied that the settings are outdated if I use a custom search engine? No other settings are checked/affected by this prompt, so why frame it as a settings issue at all? Re 4.: Why silently, why not a prompt here?
  - NiceGuy_Ty 9y ago
    Using an HTTP based search engine should be explicitly opt-in, imo. Moving it to https by default seems like the right choice for non-technical users.
- nialv7 9y ago
  There's another firefox prompt which also annoys me. Firefox sometimes asks me if I want to do a factory reset, clear all my settings and add-ons, "to make the browser faster". I believe most users will find this question absurd. And Mozilla give it a pretty baity name, too. "Refresh Firefox". What if someone clicks Yes by mistake?

confounded 9y ago

It did for me.

patall 9y ago

It certainly did not ask for me and just switched from startpage to Google. Also auto-installed the update (against my will) after I had voted to wait a few times, though that might have been autoupdate as it was on my work computer (have heard from others that it was not which I also suspect but I am too lazy to check). Mozilla is certainly losing trust with that, if it weren't for the lack of good alternatives...

bigbugbag 9y ago
There is a good alternative called waterfox (yup the name says it all) and of the recent update disabled the dreaded auto update thing trying actively to get rid of your legacy extensions. https://waterfoxproject.org/ https://waterfoxproject.org/
shostack 9y ago
The auto update happened to me too and broke all my good extensions including All In One Gestures and NoScript. How do you disable the auto update? For now I've manually installed an older compatible version.

cryptoz 9y ago

A few years ago when Mozilla switched from Google to Yahoo, they updated Firefox on my Mac and changed my default search from Google to Yahoo. It was not a new installation, it was an upgrade, and I was not asked about the switch.

staktrace 9y ago
If you don't change the default search engine, then updates to the default search engine will affect you. If you explicitly change the default, then the updates should leave your choice intact.
- Drdrdrq 9y ago
  As commented elsewhere: not true. I had to change settings (back) on quite a few accounts, so I'm certain of it. And yes, I did have StartPage as default.
  - staktrace 9y ago
    I was slightly off; see callahad's description of the algorithm elsewhere in the thread for a better description of what happens.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    But you've said what s/he said - you liked the default, but the default changed. That's what you both agree on. Had you not remained on the default search engine, your move would have been retained. This leaves the question of whether a past change first away from the default and then back would have been counted as a choice to be retained or as merely the default.
- mozillanotnice 9y ago
  I had another provider explicitly set default search engine, but was asked if it could switch to Google during the Ubuntu update to 57. Annoying.
  - 9y ago

deckarep 9y ago

In 2017 who’s still using Yahoo anyway for their search engine?

neonhomer 9y ago
I was going to ask the same thing. But also why are people still using Google? I've been using DuckDuckGo for years and only use Google when I'm forced to (like in Chrome on iOS).
- flavor8 9y ago
  DDG's fine for some kinds of searches, but for search involving you as context (which can be useful) it is obviously not useful.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  Because fairly frequently, I'll search for something on DDG, not find what I was expecting, and try on Google as a backup. And because in many people's minds, Google is search.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    I thought the same thing, then I realized there was a significant selection bias: I was only looking at events where half the hypothesis (DDG fails & Google succeeds) is true. For example, how does DDG perform when Google fails?
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      That's true, but I wasn't thinking in that direction. I was just trying to answer "why are people still using Google?". But honestly, if Google doesn't have it (down below whichever ad-driven first results I have to skip), it's a good bet that I'm not going to find it on other search engines either, unless some specific site indexes its own content better than the search engines do (archive.org comes to mind, for some things). Of course, this is all colored by my search style and the topics I'm usually looking for information on.

staktrace 9y ago

It should only try to switch the user's default search engine if the user hasn't explicitly set a default search engine. You can verify this by install a Firefox 56 build from the ftp archive, explicitly changing the default search engine, and then letting it update to Firefox 57.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Drdrdrq 9y ago
Not true - I had to explicitly remove Google (again) and set StartPage as default on all my installations. I think it happened with 57.0.1 upgrade though.
- staktrace 9y ago
  Hm, if that's the case, then it's a bug. If you could file a bug at bugzilla.mozilla.org it would be much appreciated. Even though it already happened we can try and ensure it doesn't happen again.
  - catwell 9y ago
    Apparently it is a bug. It works for search engines shipped with Firefox (such as DuckSuckGo) but not for others (such as StartPage of Qwant). See https://twitter.com/gchampeau/status/938757076213518336 https://twitter.com/gchampeau/status/938757076213518336
    - bigbugbag 9y ago
      I have a hard time believing this kind of happy coincidence benefiting their commercial partner could be a bug, it really looks like an intended feature.
    - feelin_googley 9y ago
      It sounds like Mozilla just wants to keep users confined to a pre-approved list of search engines. Are these also business partners with Mozilla, like Google? Here are some other HTTPS-enabled search engines to test. If I am not mistaken all have been mentioned on HN in the past. https://wiby.me https://gigablast.com https://mojeek.com https://unbubble.eu https://ecosia.org https://searx.me https://symbolhound.com https://findx.com

smichel17 9y ago

On my machine it stayed with ddg. shrug

TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
Me too.

nine_k 9y ago

It did ask me, and only once, when I updated to 57.01 or something.

ChuckMcM 9y ago

Maybe? It certainly continues to raise the cost to Google for the search traffic provided by Firefox. When Firefox switched to Firefox it boosted Yahoo!'s organic share of search [1], which if it held up at the 2% speculated would represent about (16.8B * 2%) 336M searches in Feb '17 [2] attributable to the Mozilla deal. One would need to work backward from the revenue per thousand (RPM) to see what sort of ROI that gave Yahoo!. The story at the time was that Google walked away from the deal when Mozilla wanted more than they thought their traffic was worth, and now Google is back 2 years before the contract expires makes me wonder if Mozilla was more accurate in the relative value of their ability to generate search traffic. So now I'm curious to see how much Google's traffic acquisition costs have gone up (TAC) with this switch. [1] https://www.digitalreachagency.com/blog/firefox-deal-boosts-yahoo-organic-search/ https://www.digitalreachagency.com/blog/firefox-deal-boosts-... [2] https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Releases-February-2016-US-Desktop-Search-Engine-Rankings https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Releases...

greglindahl 9y ago
My handwave for the previous Google deal was that Mozilla was getting paid about 10% of the money Google made from Firefox searches. There's a lot of money there.
- zerr 9y ago
  How that amount is calculated and how transparent it is (to Mozilla or similar partners)?
dblohm7 9y ago
Google did not walk away from Mozilla in 2014. Mozilla walked away from Google.

callahad 9y ago

I'm not privy to the search deal, but my understanding is that this is driven by our internal user research and metrics, which show that a significant number of users have a search engine other than what they prefer or expect. In these cases, users usually choose to directly navigate to their preferred search engine to search, instead of using Firefox access points. That’s a poor user experience, so our focus here is on ensuring users have the defaults they want. The decision tree is roughly: 1. If the custom engine is one of our default options, keep it. 2. If the custom engine was set by an add-on, keep it. 3. If the custom engine uses HTTPS, prompt the user to actively choose by opening about:searchreset, and do not prompt again after the user has made a choice. 4. If the custom engine uses insecure HTTP, silently reset to the default. You can open about:searchreset yourself to see what the prompt looks like. Code at https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a928be5dacc3b544e29c0612b3f8cda6447df802/browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js#2197-2210 https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a928be5dacc3b544...

adsche 9y ago
Re 3.: I think that's a terrible promtp. The prompt says, my settings might be outdated and I should switch back to Google as a search engine. What's the reasoning here? Why is implied that the settings are outdated if I use a custom search engine? No other settings are checked/affected by this prompt, so why frame it as a settings issue at all? Re 4.: Why silently, why not a prompt here?
- NiceGuy_Ty 9y ago
  Using an HTTP based search engine should be explicitly opt-in, imo. Moving it to https by default seems like the right choice for non-technical users.
nialv7 9y ago
There's another firefox prompt which also annoys me. Firefox sometimes asks me if I want to do a factory reset, clear all my settings and add-ons, "to make the browser faster". I believe most users will find this question absurd. And Mozilla give it a pretty baity name, too. "Refresh Firefox". What if someone clicks Yes by mistake?