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Software development has proven methods for organizing labor by labor instead of by the whims of the owning class. The most useful software in the world is deve

Software development has proven methods for organizing labor by labor instead of by the whims of the owning class. The most useful software in the world is developed by an ecosystem of communities that resembles anarchist, communist ideas of how society at large could operate. Because of the unique capital requirements for software development, cooperative firms are more viable than in any other industry. We could be doing our work in radically different ways. Too bad most programmers are allergic to collective labor action.

drb91 9y ago
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." Nowhere is this more true than Silicon Valley.
- danharaj 9y ago
  Kind of ignores the fact that socialism did take root, like Eugene Debs running for president, but it was violently uprooted and the ground was torched and salted and a massive state apparatus was developed to make sure it could never be entertained again.
  - cafard 9y ago
    If Eugene Debs running for president proves that socialism did take root, how do the later runs of Norman Thomas not argue against the torching & salting?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Someone running for President multiple times and never clearing either a single electoral vote or more than 6% of the popular vote is certainly evidence of their personal determination, but hardly evidence of them representating a philosophy that had taken root.
- seppin 9y ago
  This implies the poor are better off under socialism than as lower class in a rich country.
  - meebs 9y ago
    Have you seen America? :)
  - iamcasen 9y ago
    If you know what socialism is, then you would know that they would indeed be better off. It's simple really, eliminate this concept of capital ownership by individuals or corporations. That way, when you work, your boss is not getting a profit on top of your labor. That means your wages go up! Best thing of all, whatever your participating in, you have part ownership in.
    - Tehchops 9y ago
      It'll surely work this time!
      - gremlinsinc 9y ago
        We need a marriage of systems... where private co-ops own the corporations..they set supply/demand based on market considerations just like capitalism -- but everyone shares in the profits. Full capitalism/Full socialism isn't the answer...there's got to be some sort of middle ground where more people can be lifted up by the system.
      - drb91 9y ago
        Well, capitalism doesn’t quite work either. But people seem to prefer it for some reason....
  - eesmith 9y ago
    Would you rather be poor in the US, or poor in Sweden? Both are rich countries. Socialism has a much stronger influence in Sweden.
- jondubois 9y ago
  I think that Americans are extremely optimistic. It seems that many Americans believe in fate, at least on a subconscious level; that everything happens for a reason and that everything will work out in the end. Maybe it's related to the kinds of movies that Americans watch? I love watching Hollywood movies sometimes, but I have to say that compared to international films, the characters in American movies tend to be much more one-dimensional (have very well defined roles) and everything always works out for them in the end. If you watch European movies, the characters are often hard to pin down and the story often ends either badly or unsatisfying at best... Just like real life.
  - genzoman 9y ago
    Then why just go outside and experience your unsatisfying life instead of paying to see a movie about it?
    - jondubois 9y ago
      That way I can learn about all the other ways in which life can go wrong.
oddsockmachine 9y ago
I'm in the early stages of setting up a co-operative consultancy; I've found many people (eg potential partners) responsive to such an idea. The only downside has been needing to present as a traditional, hierarchical organization to potential clients.
Tehchops 9y ago
|Too bad most programmers are allergic to collective labor action. Because there are plenty of real-world examples in other industries of the end state of "collective labor action", and it's generally not pretty. We as an industry really do not want to emulate that model.
- danharaj 9y ago
  Our industry already bases a massive amount of its work on models of such collective labor. Software development has unique structural characteristics that make it fertile ground for experimenting with different organizational models. Yours is a knee-jerk reaction.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Seems like you're combining two different things. > Our industry already bases a massive amount of its work on models of such collective labor. By this, I presume that you mean open source software, though you don't explicitly say so. And yes, it's true, open source software is... somewhat socialist? Somewhat collectivist? It's not normal capitalism. It's the workers coming together to produce something that corporations don't own and don't control. > Too bad most programmers are allergic to collective labor action. When you speak of "collective labor action", though, I presume (perhaps wrongly) that you're talking about unionization. That's a very different topic. You can't use open source software to say that software's ready to strike or take over the factories, because those are two very different uses of "collective labor".
    - Tehchops 9y ago
      > When you speak of "collective labor action", though, I presume (perhaps wrongly) that you're talking about unionization. This was the assumption I took as well in my original reply. Sure, the work of OSS is kind of a socialist/collectivist arrangement. However, at any significant scale, I feel like that's going to break down if taken too far. Look no further than one of the biggest OSS projects on the planet: Linux. It's run dictatorship-style by a not always personable technocrat. Take that away, and it's probably a disaster. To return to the original point: if it indeed referred(action) to unionization, then I'm pretty comfortable in saying my reaction is not "knee-jerk", it's wholly informed and justified. I've had many friends/family/acquaintances work under the union framework. You don't want that model anywhere near software development, or IT in general. This is an entirely plausible scenario: Your team needs to deploy a critical bugfix to prod, except, see, per the union agreement, only Frank is allowed to do software deploys. As it turns out, Frank's on vacation this week. Tough shit. You push through and do it anyway, Frank files a grievance, your company gets fined/taken to court etc... Even worse, maybe Frank is an incompetent waste bag who breaks everything he touches. Problem is, he's union, and he's been here ten years. You do 10x the output of Frank, and generally have to clean up his messes. Did I mention he makes more than you too? Union...
eesmith 9y ago
What makes something "the most useful software in the world"? There's a bunch of useful software which isn't run that way: Microsoft {Windows, Word, Excel, PowerPoint}. The software which runs Facebook, Google search, and Google's YouTube. iOS. How much does Google Chrome development "resemble anarchist, communist ideas"? Or Android, for that matter. Minix is in every modern Intel processor, but I also don't think it was developed by the ecosystem you describe.

drb91 9y ago

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." Nowhere is this more true than Silicon Valley.

danharaj 9y ago
Kind of ignores the fact that socialism did take root, like Eugene Debs running for president, but it was violently uprooted and the ground was torched and salted and a massive state apparatus was developed to make sure it could never be entertained again.
- cafard 9y ago
  If Eugene Debs running for president proves that socialism did take root, how do the later runs of Norman Thomas not argue against the torching & salting?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Someone running for President multiple times and never clearing either a single electoral vote or more than 6% of the popular vote is certainly evidence of their personal determination, but hardly evidence of them representating a philosophy that had taken root.
seppin 9y ago
This implies the poor are better off under socialism than as lower class in a rich country.
- meebs 9y ago
  Have you seen America? :)
- iamcasen 9y ago
  If you know what socialism is, then you would know that they would indeed be better off. It's simple really, eliminate this concept of capital ownership by individuals or corporations. That way, when you work, your boss is not getting a profit on top of your labor. That means your wages go up! Best thing of all, whatever your participating in, you have part ownership in.
  - Tehchops 9y ago
    It'll surely work this time!
    - gremlinsinc 9y ago
      We need a marriage of systems... where private co-ops own the corporations..they set supply/demand based on market considerations just like capitalism -- but everyone shares in the profits. Full capitalism/Full socialism isn't the answer...there's got to be some sort of middle ground where more people can be lifted up by the system.
    - drb91 9y ago
      Well, capitalism doesn’t quite work either. But people seem to prefer it for some reason....
- eesmith 9y ago
  Would you rather be poor in the US, or poor in Sweden? Both are rich countries. Socialism has a much stronger influence in Sweden.
jondubois 9y ago
I think that Americans are extremely optimistic. It seems that many Americans believe in fate, at least on a subconscious level; that everything happens for a reason and that everything will work out in the end. Maybe it's related to the kinds of movies that Americans watch? I love watching Hollywood movies sometimes, but I have to say that compared to international films, the characters in American movies tend to be much more one-dimensional (have very well defined roles) and everything always works out for them in the end. If you watch European movies, the characters are often hard to pin down and the story often ends either badly or unsatisfying at best... Just like real life.
- genzoman 9y ago
  Then why just go outside and experience your unsatisfying life instead of paying to see a movie about it?
  - jondubois 9y ago
    That way I can learn about all the other ways in which life can go wrong.

oddsockmachine 9y ago

I'm in the early stages of setting up a co-operative consultancy; I've found many people (eg potential partners) responsive to such an idea. The only downside has been needing to present as a traditional, hierarchical organization to potential clients.

Tehchops 9y ago

|Too bad most programmers are allergic to collective labor action. Because there are plenty of real-world examples in other industries of the end state of "collective labor action", and it's generally not pretty. We as an industry really do not want to emulate that model.

danharaj 9y ago
Our industry already bases a massive amount of its work on models of such collective labor. Software development has unique structural characteristics that make it fertile ground for experimenting with different organizational models. Yours is a knee-jerk reaction.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Seems like you're combining two different things. > Our industry already bases a massive amount of its work on models of such collective labor. By this, I presume that you mean open source software, though you don't explicitly say so. And yes, it's true, open source software is... somewhat socialist? Somewhat collectivist? It's not normal capitalism. It's the workers coming together to produce something that corporations don't own and don't control. > Too bad most programmers are allergic to collective labor action. When you speak of "collective labor action", though, I presume (perhaps wrongly) that you're talking about unionization. That's a very different topic. You can't use open source software to say that software's ready to strike or take over the factories, because those are two very different uses of "collective labor".
  - Tehchops 9y ago
    > When you speak of "collective labor action", though, I presume (perhaps wrongly) that you're talking about unionization. This was the assumption I took as well in my original reply. Sure, the work of OSS is kind of a socialist/collectivist arrangement. However, at any significant scale, I feel like that's going to break down if taken too far. Look no further than one of the biggest OSS projects on the planet: Linux. It's run dictatorship-style by a not always personable technocrat. Take that away, and it's probably a disaster. To return to the original point: if it indeed referred(action) to unionization, then I'm pretty comfortable in saying my reaction is not "knee-jerk", it's wholly informed and justified. I've had many friends/family/acquaintances work under the union framework. You don't want that model anywhere near software development, or IT in general. This is an entirely plausible scenario: Your team needs to deploy a critical bugfix to prod, except, see, per the union agreement, only Frank is allowed to do software deploys. As it turns out, Frank's on vacation this week. Tough shit. You push through and do it anyway, Frank files a grievance, your company gets fined/taken to court etc... Even worse, maybe Frank is an incompetent waste bag who breaks everything he touches. Problem is, he's union, and he's been here ten years. You do 10x the output of Frank, and generally have to clean up his messes. Did I mention he makes more than you too? Union...

eesmith 9y ago

What makes something "the most useful software in the world"? There's a bunch of useful software which isn't run that way: Microsoft {Windows, Word, Excel, PowerPoint}. The software which runs Facebook, Google search, and Google's YouTube. iOS. How much does Google Chrome development "resemble anarchist, communist ideas"? Or Android, for that matter. Minix is in every modern Intel processor, but I also don't think it was developed by the ecosystem you describe.