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I don't completely disagree but I will try to at least bring up some contrary views. > Untraceable money Bitcoin is pseudoanonymous with it's public ledger, h

by lawn 9y ago

I don't completely disagree but I will try to at least bring up some contrary views. > Untraceable money Bitcoin is pseudoanonymous with it's public ledger, hardly untraceable. Look into Monero for a proper anonymous coin. > Untraceable money means that corruption and tax evasion would be easier than ever. A contrary point is that today corruption and tax evasion is only for the very rich, see the paradise papers for example. In a sick way this could give the common man more power and maybe make the world a little more balanced. Also tax collection is already heavily based on social pressure and doing the right thing. It's not obvious that the threat of getting caught, compared to the social stigma, weighs more. > Deflation means that the rich will get richer doing nothing while the poor won't be able to get a loan to bootstrap their businesses. Forget about trickle down economics, this is downright "trickle up". I also don't like extreme deflation, but I also don't like the inflation based system we have today. Inflation basically eats away at your savings. This is a bigger problem for everyday poor people compared to the rich as they have more investment options. Their buffer they hold in banks or in cash is smaller percentage wise, they can more easily invest in housing and they can more easily grow their capital as money breads money. The problem with rich getting richer is already present. Without inflation loans would harder and would combat the very real problems with too much loans (housing bubble, student loan crisis, ...). It could also help to reign in fractional banking as it would get riskier/harder.

simias 9y ago
>Bitcoin is not untraceable money, it can be even more traceable than normal currency. Fair enough, how about "trivial to launder" instead? The fact that every transaction is visible on the blockchain means that people who don't bother obfuscating their tracks (i.e. honest people who don't feel they have anything to hide) are the one who risk their privacy invaded: "hey, look, this is the address where we pay X his salary and some of it got transfered to the known address of this sex shop website". If you want to hide your tracks however it's easy. Say I'm a politician and I want to accept a bribe. I can get a briefcase full of cash, but that's bulky, not very convenient and I could get caught if I try to move it (especially across borders). Or I could try to open a bank account in some place where people look the other way but it's more complicated, involves third parties who could expose me (panama papers, lux leaks...), leaves a paper trail etc... With BTC I click "generate a new receive address" in my wallet, give it to my anonymous benefactor and that's that. Then after that if I really want to make it difficult to follow the money I can split my coin in multiple addresses, do a bunch of dummy transactions to obfuscate where the BTC change hands, go through a bunch of coin mixers, maybe convert to an other crypto (monero for instance?), do a bunch more mixing, and then back to BTC. Good luck unravelling all that. >It could be stablished as a law that public money when being spent in the blockchain needs to be auditable by the people (identities of sender and recipient known), and this way you would end up with even less corruption than the current system. Public spending is already supposed to be auditable in the democratic countries I know of (except in very specific cases, like "black boxes" for paying informants etc..). Generally corruption and waste is when people overpay for a service, like say paying 10x the cost for the construction of a new stadium, favouring a contractor over an other etc... I don't think BTC would help greatly with that. There are many, many ways of making "technically legal" purchases that conceal corruption, I don't think it would improve things very much. "Here, have this very valuable painting by Manet as a thank you for your help", "Here, let me make a charitable donation to your foundation", "Here, let me change this piece of regulation that will benefit your company", etc... Unless you want to force all citizens (in the public and private) to publish their addresses I'm not sure you can really reign that in. And even then, how would you enforce that?
- lawn 9y ago
  I think you responded to the wrong comment. I would still like to respond to this: > Fair enough, how about "trivial to launder" instead? It's absolutely possible to do it correctly. But the number of people who have been caught by blockchain analysis on darknet markets show that it's either not trivial or people are really stupid. Even after you get your Bitcoin by buying it cash, perfectly anonymously, you can still be caught. For example the person who bought them from can give up some information which may implicate you if they ever mess. You also want to spend your Bitcoins and presumably you might then leave a trace connecting on of your addresses to you. By analysing your address they might find your other addresses and it's game over. > Then after that if I really want to make it difficult to follow the money I can split my coin in multiple addresses, do a bunch of dummy transactions to obfuscate where the BTC change hands, go through a bunch of coin mixers, maybe convert to an other crypto (monero for instance?), do a bunch more mixing, and then back to BTC. Good luck unravelling all that. Multiple addresses, dummy transactions and mixers are already being traced through with fair success [1]. Monero gives good privacy, but you might still trip up when you go Bitcoin -> Monero or even Monero -> Bitcoin if you convert very similar amounts during a specific timeframe. And you must always shield your IP and browser fingerprint... It's possible, but this is not "trivial to launder" for most people. [1]: https://themerkle.com/blocksci-succesfully-traces-transactions-performed-with-dash-zcash-and-other-currencies/ https://themerkle.com/blocksci-succesfully-traces-transactio...

by lawn 9y ago

simias 9y ago

>Bitcoin is not untraceable money, it can be even more traceable than normal currency. Fair enough, how about "trivial to launder" instead? The fact that every transaction is visible on the blockchain means that people who don't bother obfuscating their tracks (i.e. honest people who don't feel they have anything to hide) are the one who risk their privacy invaded: "hey, look, this is the address where we pay X his salary and some of it got transfered to the known address of this sex shop website". If you want to hide your tracks however it's easy. Say I'm a politician and I want to accept a bribe. I can get a briefcase full of cash, but that's bulky, not very convenient and I could get caught if I try to move it (especially across borders). Or I could try to open a bank account in some place where people look the other way but it's more complicated, involves third parties who could expose me (panama papers, lux leaks...), leaves a paper trail etc... With BTC I click "generate a new receive address" in my wallet, give it to my anonymous benefactor and that's that. Then after that if I really want to make it difficult to follow the money I can split my coin in multiple addresses, do a bunch of dummy transactions to obfuscate where the BTC change hands, go through a bunch of coin mixers, maybe convert to an other crypto (monero for instance?), do a bunch more mixing, and then back to BTC. Good luck unravelling all that. >It could be stablished as a law that public money when being spent in the blockchain needs to be auditable by the people (identities of sender and recipient known), and this way you would end up with even less corruption than the current system. Public spending is already supposed to be auditable in the democratic countries I know of (except in very specific cases, like "black boxes" for paying informants etc..). Generally corruption and waste is when people overpay for a service, like say paying 10x the cost for the construction of a new stadium, favouring a contractor over an other etc... I don't think BTC would help greatly with that. There are many, many ways of making "technically legal" purchases that conceal corruption, I don't think it would improve things very much. "Here, have this very valuable painting by Manet as a thank you for your help", "Here, let me make a charitable donation to your foundation", "Here, let me change this piece of regulation that will benefit your company", etc... Unless you want to force all citizens (in the public and private) to publish their addresses I'm not sure you can really reign that in. And even then, how would you enforce that?

lawn 9y ago
I think you responded to the wrong comment. I would still like to respond to this: > Fair enough, how about "trivial to launder" instead? It's absolutely possible to do it correctly. But the number of people who have been caught by blockchain analysis on darknet markets show that it's either not trivial or people are really stupid. Even after you get your Bitcoin by buying it cash, perfectly anonymously, you can still be caught. For example the person who bought them from can give up some information which may implicate you if they ever mess. You also want to spend your Bitcoins and presumably you might then leave a trace connecting on of your addresses to you. By analysing your address they might find your other addresses and it's game over. > Then after that if I really want to make it difficult to follow the money I can split my coin in multiple addresses, do a bunch of dummy transactions to obfuscate where the BTC change hands, go through a bunch of coin mixers, maybe convert to an other crypto (monero for instance?), do a bunch more mixing, and then back to BTC. Good luck unravelling all that. Multiple addresses, dummy transactions and mixers are already being traced through with fair success [1]. Monero gives good privacy, but you might still trip up when you go Bitcoin -> Monero or even Monero -> Bitcoin if you convert very similar amounts during a specific timeframe. And you must always shield your IP and browser fingerprint... It's possible, but this is not "trivial to launder" for most people. [1]: https://themerkle.com/blocksci-succesfully-traces-transactions-performed-with-dash-zcash-and-other-currencies/ https://themerkle.com/blocksci-succesfully-traces-transactio...