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I don't see how a jail term can be even compared to losing a job and tracking by Facebook to government surveillance programs. You can opt out of it just by not

I don't see how a jail term can be even compared to losing a job and tracking by Facebook to government surveillance programs. You can opt out of it just by not using FB or by using a fake name. Go try to opt out of chinese censorship program. Regarding Snapchat - the company that cares about privacy wouldn't require so many permissions (including a permission to receive SMS messages).

opportune 9y ago
First, I'm not directly comparing losing a job to going to jail, I'm saying that things are not so different here. Of course going to jail is much worse than losing a job but when you consider all of the negatives of losing a job (for an average person, not someone in tech) I'd still say it's one of the worst things that can happen to you aside from being the victim of a crime or natural disaster, losing a close family member or friend, and going to jail/prison. Also, you can opt out of Wechat just as you can opt out of FB, so I'm not sure I see your point. Sure you can't opt out of chinese censorship in general but the chilling effect in both cases is where I see the analogy. It's bad for online platforms to do that whether by coercion or direct force.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  Not that I disagree with you on the overall direction, but I guess the question here is how easy it would be to opt out of this sort of thing in China, given the extent of their "great firewall". At present, in Western nations, it is somewhat easy to, say, self-host certain social media platforms (from Wordpress to Mastodon) for friends and family and whatnot that could be used for more private, less advertiser-monitored social media interaction. Assuming you get buy in among your friends, this pretty much avoids issues with advertiser and employer snooping that you have on large social media sites. You can then keep your Facebooks and Twitters for your "public face" (or ditch them entirely). I don't know if the same applies in China.
  - codedokode 9y ago
    To host a website in China you need to get a permit [1]. You can host the site outside, but I am not sure if it will be always accessible. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license
lfischer 9y ago
Losing a job might in some cases be worse than going to jail. At least in jail, someone might be feeding you something. And you could opt out of WeChat just as you opt out of Facebook.
- codedokode 9y ago
  It is unlikely that you will get quality food in a totalitarian country's prison.
  - kercker 9y ago
    This is totally nonsense. Is it a guarantee that you will get quality food in a democratic country's prison, like prisons of US?
  - d__k 9y ago
    How likely it is that you will get quality food in a democratic prison like Guantanamo?
coldtea 9y ago
>I don't see how a jail term can be even compared to losing a job and tracking by Facebook to government surveillance programs. Losing a job can be just as catastrophic as a jail term. Especially if it brands you for future job positions too, as "that person that was fired because X". Not everybody has it as good as in-demand developers, job wise. And employer blacklists (e.g. of union types) have been a thing for ages, and can wreck havoc to a person's life (killing their economic prospects) in the way that a jail sentence might not.

opportune 9y ago

First, I'm not directly comparing losing a job to going to jail, I'm saying that things are not so different here. Of course going to jail is much worse than losing a job but when you consider all of the negatives of losing a job (for an average person, not someone in tech) I'd still say it's one of the worst things that can happen to you aside from being the victim of a crime or natural disaster, losing a close family member or friend, and going to jail/prison. Also, you can opt out of Wechat just as you can opt out of FB, so I'm not sure I see your point. Sure you can't opt out of chinese censorship in general but the chilling effect in both cases is where I see the analogy. It's bad for online platforms to do that whether by coercion or direct force.

soundwave106 9y ago
Not that I disagree with you on the overall direction, but I guess the question here is how easy it would be to opt out of this sort of thing in China, given the extent of their "great firewall". At present, in Western nations, it is somewhat easy to, say, self-host certain social media platforms (from Wordpress to Mastodon) for friends and family and whatnot that could be used for more private, less advertiser-monitored social media interaction. Assuming you get buy in among your friends, this pretty much avoids issues with advertiser and employer snooping that you have on large social media sites. You can then keep your Facebooks and Twitters for your "public face" (or ditch them entirely). I don't know if the same applies in China.
- codedokode 9y ago
  To host a website in China you need to get a permit [1]. You can host the site outside, but I am not sure if it will be always accessible. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license

lfischer 9y ago

Losing a job might in some cases be worse than going to jail. At least in jail, someone might be feeding you something. And you could opt out of WeChat just as you opt out of Facebook.

codedokode 9y ago
It is unlikely that you will get quality food in a totalitarian country's prison.
- kercker 9y ago
  This is totally nonsense. Is it a guarantee that you will get quality food in a democratic country's prison, like prisons of US?
- d__k 9y ago
  How likely it is that you will get quality food in a democratic prison like Guantanamo?

coldtea 9y ago

>I don't see how a jail term can be even compared to losing a job and tracking by Facebook to government surveillance programs. Losing a job can be just as catastrophic as a jail term. Especially if it brands you for future job positions too, as "that person that was fired because X". Not everybody has it as good as in-demand developers, job wise. And employer blacklists (e.g. of union types) have been a thing for ages, and can wreck havoc to a person's life (killing their economic prospects) in the way that a jail sentence might not.