4 ms·

GNU Guix and GuixSD 0.14.0 released

69 points by Ruud-v-A 9y ago

hoodoof 9y ago
Is this Linux? The site should be more direct about whether or not it is Linux. I don't have time to wade through reams of words to work out what something is. Just tell me. It's not clear at all why this matters or is better than other operating systems. If this is a competitor to Linux then the first thing they need to address is "why should you care?", if it is Linux, then the first thing it should adress is "Why you should use this over other distros"
- girzel 9y ago
  They ought to have said Gnu/Linux, as per their own propaganda! I'm guessing if the word "Hurd" doesn't appear anywhere on the page, it's still Linux.
  - madez 9y ago
    Linux is just the kernel. GNU as a name for the system is okay, while Linux is arguably not. GNU/Linux is just a compromise for those who insist on naming Linux. Also, from the projects website, we have "GuixSD is a distribution of the GNU operating system centered on the GNU Guix package manager. It uses the Linux-libre kernel, and support for the Hurd is being worked on." https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/ https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- hennsen 9y ago
  https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/ https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/
muxator 9y ago
I really wish Guix and NixOS had more usage in the industry. I am not sure if these are the projects that are going to drive the innovation, if they are only showing the way for the 2nd-generation functional package managers, or if this will just remain a niche forever.
- nextos 9y ago
  There are some deployments in the industry already. AFAIK, Logicblox employs Nix creator. Both Nix & Guix are past proof-of-concept stage. In particular, I've found Guix very elegant, simple and useful.
- greenhouse_gas 9y ago
  The problem is that _every_ _single_ _program_ has to have its configuration files rewritten to take nix or guix into account, and every sysadmin has to know how to use the new nix or guix way.
  - nextos 9y ago
    I don't think this is the case. I've packaged several things for Guix, and patches are rare. Stuff that has good configuration (e.g. uses GNU make, and thus accepts --prefix) will be fine.
    - greenhouse_gas 9y ago
      Wait, I thought that guix (like nix) keep their full configuration in flat nix or lisp files (like https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Using-the-Configuration-System.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Using-the... )? I never really tried guix, but that's how nix works ( https://nixos.org/nixos/manual/index.html https://nixos.org/nixos/manual/index.html ). So how does Apache configuration on upstream (meaning, how it's configured on Windows/Linux/FreeBSD) correlate to how it's configured on nixos/guix?
      - nextos 9y ago
jancsika 9y ago
> Hackable. It provides Guile Scheme APIs, including high-level embedded domain-specific languages (EDSLs) to define packages and whole-system configurations. What is the benefit of directly using Scheme for the package declarations over using NixOS's DSL? Specifically, what technical features does Scheme make possible which are not possible in NixOS?
- rekado 9y ago
  > what technical features does Scheme make possible which are not possible in NixOS Integration of all stages. We use the same language on the build side as on the host side; the same language to execute builds as to define packages. In Guix there is no mix of languages, so we don't need to glue strings together produce build-side shell scripts. Instead we can use higher-level S-expressions and code staging. For more on code staging see this paper: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01580582/en This allows for code reuse, even across projects, e.g. the GNU Shepherd init system can take the container code from Guix and run services in isolated environments with very little effort. See this blog post for details: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/blog/2017/running-system-services-in-containers/ FWIW, Guix implements a DSL that's embedded in Scheme (it's not just "raw" Scheme). The advantage of embedding is tooling: you can work with package definitions right there in the REPL / with Emacs+Geiser; you can use the Guile debugger features. Another result is that all these package definitions form a lazy graph of live Scheme values. In Nix you have a large hash table of identifiers to functions. Think code vs data. In Guix the primary data structure is an emergent lazy graph; it is not merely an inert description of such a graph. Each package definition is just another Scheme value.
- anon90556382956 9y ago
  I'm a complete beginner but, for example, comparing Nix's Firefox and Guix's IceCat you can see that with Nix you have to fallback to shell scripting for some tasks while with Guile you can perform those operations with Scheme. Nix's Firefox: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/applications/networking/browsers/firefox-bin/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/applicatio... Guix IceCat: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages/gnuzilla.scm?id=v0.14.0-95-g5a2f019c7#n402 https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages...
shawndellysse 9y ago
I guess I should use this time to shamelessly plug one of my side projects, farch: https://github.com/shawndellysse/farch https://github.com/shawndellysse/farch It's an attempt to bring the functional system paradigm to Arch linux, giving you the "my system is a function of my configuration" approach combined with not having to relearn how to administer a linux system like GuixSD and NixOS require.

69 points by Ruud-v-A 9y ago

Is this Linux? The site should be more direct about whether or not it is Linux. I don't have time to wade through reams of words to work out what something is. Just tell me. It's not clear at all why this matters or is better than other operating systems. If this is a competitor to Linux then the first thing they need to address is "why should you care?", if it is Linux, then the first thing it should adress is "Why you should use this over other distros"

girzel 9y ago
They ought to have said Gnu/Linux, as per their own propaganda! I'm guessing if the word "Hurd" doesn't appear anywhere on the page, it's still Linux.
- madez 9y ago
  Linux is just the kernel. GNU as a name for the system is okay, while Linux is arguably not. GNU/Linux is just a compromise for those who insist on naming Linux. Also, from the projects website, we have "GuixSD is a distribution of the GNU operating system centered on the GNU Guix package manager. It uses the Linux-libre kernel, and support for the Hurd is being worked on." https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/ https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
hennsen 9y ago
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/ https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/about/

muxator 9y ago

I really wish Guix and NixOS had more usage in the industry. I am not sure if these are the projects that are going to drive the innovation, if they are only showing the way for the 2nd-generation functional package managers, or if this will just remain a niche forever.

nextos 9y ago
There are some deployments in the industry already. AFAIK, Logicblox employs Nix creator. Both Nix & Guix are past proof-of-concept stage. In particular, I've found Guix very elegant, simple and useful.
greenhouse_gas 9y ago
The problem is that _every_ _single_ _program_ has to have its configuration files rewritten to take nix or guix into account, and every sysadmin has to know how to use the new nix or guix way.
- nextos 9y ago
  I don't think this is the case. I've packaged several things for Guix, and patches are rare. Stuff that has good configuration (e.g. uses GNU make, and thus accepts --prefix) will be fine.
  - greenhouse_gas 9y ago
    Wait, I thought that guix (like nix) keep their full configuration in flat nix or lisp files (like https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Using-the-Configuration-System.html https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Using-the... )? I never really tried guix, but that's how nix works ( https://nixos.org/nixos/manual/index.html https://nixos.org/nixos/manual/index.html ). So how does Apache configuration on upstream (meaning, how it's configured on Windows/Linux/FreeBSD) correlate to how it's configured on nixos/guix?
    - nextos 9y ago

jancsika 9y ago

> Hackable. It provides Guile Scheme APIs, including high-level embedded domain-specific languages (EDSLs) to define packages and whole-system configurations. What is the benefit of directly using Scheme for the package declarations over using NixOS's DSL? Specifically, what technical features does Scheme make possible which are not possible in NixOS?

rekado 9y ago
> what technical features does Scheme make possible which are not possible in NixOS Integration of all stages. We use the same language on the build side as on the host side; the same language to execute builds as to define packages. In Guix there is no mix of languages, so we don't need to glue strings together produce build-side shell scripts. Instead we can use higher-level S-expressions and code staging. For more on code staging see this paper: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01580582/en This allows for code reuse, even across projects, e.g. the GNU Shepherd init system can take the container code from Guix and run services in isolated environments with very little effort. See this blog post for details: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/blog/2017/running-system-services-in-containers/ FWIW, Guix implements a DSL that's embedded in Scheme (it's not just "raw" Scheme). The advantage of embedding is tooling: you can work with package definitions right there in the REPL / with Emacs+Geiser; you can use the Guile debugger features. Another result is that all these package definitions form a lazy graph of live Scheme values. In Nix you have a large hash table of identifiers to functions. Think code vs data. In Guix the primary data structure is an emergent lazy graph; it is not merely an inert description of such a graph. Each package definition is just another Scheme value.
anon90556382956 9y ago
I'm a complete beginner but, for example, comparing Nix's Firefox and Guix's IceCat you can see that with Nix you have to fallback to shell scripting for some tasks while with Guile you can perform those operations with Scheme. Nix's Firefox: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/applications/networking/browsers/firefox-bin/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/applicatio... Guix IceCat: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages/gnuzilla.scm?id=v0.14.0-95-g5a2f019c7#n402 https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages...

shawndellysse 9y ago

I guess I should use this time to shamelessly plug one of my side projects, farch: https://github.com/shawndellysse/farch https://github.com/shawndellysse/farch It's an attempt to bring the functional system paradigm to Arch linux, giving you the "my system is a function of my configuration" approach combined with not having to relearn how to administer a linux system like GuixSD and NixOS require.