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Patreon is a startup which is a conduit for and yet a leech upon the incomes of struggling people[0]. An service of its kind should not be a for-profit operatio

Patreon is a startup which is a conduit for and yet a leech upon the incomes of struggling people[0]. An service of its kind should not be a for-profit operation, the incentives are perverse. Kickstarter is a Public Benefit Corporation, so I'm slightly more enthusiastic about the potential of their offering (Drip). [0] https://theoutline.com/post/2571/no-one-makes-a-living-on-patreon https://theoutline.com/post/2571/no-one-makes-a-living-on-pa...

loceng 9y ago
Nothing that is a utility should be for-profit (relating to basic survival and quality of life), however the VC model requires such fast scaling (as part of this VC money can help kill what would otherwise become a successful service through copying and scaling faster/competition); this is ultimately why subway systems, which started off as individual privately owned lines, were bought by the public. The issue is always capitalism and competitive factors, people who want to get ahead in the world - to make the world a better place - without having a collaborative mindset or understanding their actions. Facebook would be in the best position in the world to facilitate this, however current leadership hasn't ever shown the compassion necessary to understand and guide this. Part of the issue is that such a platform or ecosystem requires understanding that you need to share - meaning that value created can't all be captured/controlled or measured. Short-term scarcity vs. long-term abundance thinking.
qdot76367 9y ago
One of the divisions here is that while Kickstarter is a public benefit corp, they've also had an extremely negative view of adult related material, something that a lot of us on patreon base our campaigns on. This is why a lot of adult product campaigns end up on indiegogo. I'm sort of suspecting the same will happen with drip. While the sentiment of a PBC is nice, it doesn't really do many of us much good since we figure we have no chance to host there anyways. Even at the current fee structure, Patreon is still far better than past tries at adult related crowdfunding services, like Offbeatr (which you had to pay to even be considered for).
- j_s 9y ago
  Post-C-VC Patreon is trending away from NSFW too... An Open Letter to Patreon | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15547801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15547801
nemothekid 9y ago
Thats a pretty insightful article - I has always assumed that Patrons that could live off Patreon were concentrated at the top, but I never realized just how few of them there were. It's soured me a bit on Patreon, especially as it garners more comparisons to YouTube's ad related model. To acheive minimum wage on YouTube, you have to earn between 300,000 - 1,000,000 views per month (depending on how much the algorithm likes you). Comparing some of my favorite YouTubers to the data on Graphtreon, it seems to me YouTube is still more lucrative while Patrion does contribute a non-negligible amount of money.
- swivelmaster 9y ago
  IMO Patreon is better for more niche creators who have a smaller but more passionate audience. Sure, you can make a ton of money off of YT ad revenue if you're pulling in a few million views per video and putting out multiple videos a week, but there are a lot of YT creators who don't pull in those kinds of numbers and can make a lot more via Patreon. HBomberguy is a favorite of mine - he publishes high-quality, researched, edited videos, an average of once every few weeks, gets 100k-350k views per video, and via Patreon makes $6k/video. There's no way he'd make even close to that much via YouTube. edit: Nice, you're 'nemothekid' - part of my last name is in your username :D
hbosch 9y ago
Speaking of Kickstarter, do you think this change will push creators over to Drip[0]? Is Drip a PBC as well? 0. https://d.rip/ https://d.rip/
- dangerlibrary 9y ago
  > Ⓒ2017 Drip U.S., LLC. By Kickstarter, PBC.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Disruptive_Dave 9y ago
  Drip was acquired by Kickstarter, maybe 2 years ago.
mistercow 9y ago
Where is that article getting their hourly wage estimate from? It sure sounds like they are just basing it on the monthly numbers, and assuming that all creators on Patreon are working full time (or some particular number of hours). If so, that's obviously ludicrous. What perverse incentives are you talking about?
cdancette 9y ago
You can use liberapay (https://en.liberapay.com https://en.liberapay.com)
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
even better than a Public Benefit Corporation, could be run as open-source project like Librepay, Gratipay, or FOSSPay: https://github.com/liberapay https://github.com/liberapay https://github.com/gratipay https://github.com/gratipay https://github.com/SirCmpwn/fosspay https://github.com/SirCmpwn/fosspay
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  Liberapay unforutnately isn't able to handle USD as cheap as EUROS...according to https://liberapay.com/about/faq https://liberapay.com/about/faq: What are the payment processing fees? The fees depend on the payment method as well as the currency. When adding money into Liberapay the fees are: Card (EURO): 2.106% + €0.21 CARD (USD): 2.925% + $0.35 Bank wire (USD/EURO): 0.585% Direct debit (EURO): €0.59 Direct debit (USD): not supported Withdrawing euros to a SEPA bank account is free, transfers to other countries cost €2.93 each. Withdrawing US dollars costs $3.51 per transfer regardless of the destination country.

loceng 9y ago

Nothing that is a utility should be for-profit (relating to basic survival and quality of life), however the VC model requires such fast scaling (as part of this VC money can help kill what would otherwise become a successful service through copying and scaling faster/competition); this is ultimately why subway systems, which started off as individual privately owned lines, were bought by the public. The issue is always capitalism and competitive factors, people who want to get ahead in the world - to make the world a better place - without having a collaborative mindset or understanding their actions. Facebook would be in the best position in the world to facilitate this, however current leadership hasn't ever shown the compassion necessary to understand and guide this. Part of the issue is that such a platform or ecosystem requires understanding that you need to share - meaning that value created can't all be captured/controlled or measured. Short-term scarcity vs. long-term abundance thinking.

qdot76367 9y ago

One of the divisions here is that while Kickstarter is a public benefit corp, they've also had an extremely negative view of adult related material, something that a lot of us on patreon base our campaigns on. This is why a lot of adult product campaigns end up on indiegogo. I'm sort of suspecting the same will happen with drip. While the sentiment of a PBC is nice, it doesn't really do many of us much good since we figure we have no chance to host there anyways. Even at the current fee structure, Patreon is still far better than past tries at adult related crowdfunding services, like Offbeatr (which you had to pay to even be considered for).

j_s 9y ago
Post-C-VC Patreon is trending away from NSFW too... An Open Letter to Patreon | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15547801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15547801

nemothekid 9y ago

Thats a pretty insightful article - I has always assumed that Patrons that could live off Patreon were concentrated at the top, but I never realized just how few of them there were. It's soured me a bit on Patreon, especially as it garners more comparisons to YouTube's ad related model. To acheive minimum wage on YouTube, you have to earn between 300,000 - 1,000,000 views per month (depending on how much the algorithm likes you). Comparing some of my favorite YouTubers to the data on Graphtreon, it seems to me YouTube is still more lucrative while Patrion does contribute a non-negligible amount of money.

swivelmaster 9y ago
IMO Patreon is better for more niche creators who have a smaller but more passionate audience. Sure, you can make a ton of money off of YT ad revenue if you're pulling in a few million views per video and putting out multiple videos a week, but there are a lot of YT creators who don't pull in those kinds of numbers and can make a lot more via Patreon. HBomberguy is a favorite of mine - he publishes high-quality, researched, edited videos, an average of once every few weeks, gets 100k-350k views per video, and via Patreon makes $6k/video. There's no way he'd make even close to that much via YouTube. edit: Nice, you're 'nemothekid' - part of my last name is in your username :D

hbosch 9y ago

Speaking of Kickstarter, do you think this change will push creators over to Drip[0]? Is Drip a PBC as well? 0. https://d.rip/ https://d.rip/

dangerlibrary 9y ago
> Ⓒ2017 Drip U.S., LLC. By Kickstarter, PBC.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Disruptive_Dave 9y ago
Drip was acquired by Kickstarter, maybe 2 years ago.

mistercow 9y ago

Where is that article getting their hourly wage estimate from? It sure sounds like they are just basing it on the monthly numbers, and assuming that all creators on Patreon are working full time (or some particular number of hours). If so, that's obviously ludicrous. What perverse incentives are you talking about?

cdancette 9y ago

You can use liberapay (https://en.liberapay.com https://en.liberapay.com)

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

even better than a Public Benefit Corporation, could be run as open-source project like Librepay, Gratipay, or FOSSPay: https://github.com/liberapay https://github.com/liberapay https://github.com/gratipay https://github.com/gratipay https://github.com/SirCmpwn/fosspay https://github.com/SirCmpwn/fosspay

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
Liberapay unforutnately isn't able to handle USD as cheap as EUROS...according to https://liberapay.com/about/faq https://liberapay.com/about/faq: What are the payment processing fees? The fees depend on the payment method as well as the currency. When adding money into Liberapay the fees are: Card (EURO): 2.106% + €0.21 CARD (USD): 2.925% + $0.35 Bank wire (USD/EURO): 0.585% Direct debit (EURO): €0.59 Direct debit (USD): not supported Withdrawing euros to a SEPA bank account is free, transfers to other countries cost €2.93 each. Withdrawing US dollars costs $3.51 per transfer regardless of the destination country.