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> C++ is packed with undefined behaviour This alone clearly states that you known nothing abou C++ beyond tired old, meaningless clichés about irrelevant stuff

> C++ is packed with undefined behaviour This alone clearly states that you known nothing abou C++ beyond tired old, meaningless clichés about irrelevant stuff you've heard somewhere and are complaining about something you know nothing about.

seanwilson 9y ago
How? Has C++ eliminated undefined behaviour recently? Yes, you can avoid it but it requires years of experience, a significant cognitive load as you work, linting/testing tools and you have to hope all the libraries you're using plus your team members have the same high standard that you're trying to follow yourself. I used C++ for years and knowing there are other languages out there I have no interest in making life hard for myself.
- marshray 9y ago
  Here's 1,605 pages of defined behavior. What language are you comparing it to with more completely-defined behavior that can be translated to efficient native binary code for as many different architectures? https://www.iso.org/standard/68564.html https://www.iso.org/standard/68564.html
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > How? Because you're repeatedly showing profound ignorance on very basic aspects of using a programming language. > Has C++ eliminated undefined behaviour recently? You are aware that you're parroting on and on about an entirely irrelevant issue, don't you? I mean, any behaviour which has been left undefined in the international standard only means that there is a chance that two implementations may not implement the same obscure aspect exactly alike. And that's perfectly fine because these obscure corner cases shouldn't be used to begin with. That's what undefined behaviour does mean in practice. But even if you for some obscure and irrational reason care enough to rely on behaviour left undefined then you also go another standard approach: adopt a specific implementation and check how the behavior was implemented. Additionally, rust and go and python and other programming languages are not defined at all and somehow programmers don't get bothered by the fact that these programming languages are entirely undefined. But somehow you feel differently about a language you clearly know nothing about.
  - seanwilson 9y ago
    > But even if you for some obscure and irrational reason care enough to rely on behaviour left undefined then you also go another standard approach: adopt a specific implementation and check how the behavior was implemented. By undefined behaviour, I mean things like null dereferences, buffer overflows, memory leaks etc. that are done by accident and result in serious issues at runtime. I'd rather use a safer language where I can be more productive where possible. Sounds like you're talking about implementation defined behaviour or unspecified behaviour which are different from undefined behaviour (these three terms are defined in the C++ standard document). > But somehow you feel differently about a language you clearly know nothing about. You're not even trying to understand the point you're leaping to attack. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about something.

seanwilson 9y ago

How? Has C++ eliminated undefined behaviour recently? Yes, you can avoid it but it requires years of experience, a significant cognitive load as you work, linting/testing tools and you have to hope all the libraries you're using plus your team members have the same high standard that you're trying to follow yourself. I used C++ for years and knowing there are other languages out there I have no interest in making life hard for myself.

marshray 9y ago
Here's 1,605 pages of defined behavior. What language are you comparing it to with more completely-defined behavior that can be translated to efficient native binary code for as many different architectures? https://www.iso.org/standard/68564.html https://www.iso.org/standard/68564.html
geezerjay 9y ago
> How? Because you're repeatedly showing profound ignorance on very basic aspects of using a programming language. > Has C++ eliminated undefined behaviour recently? You are aware that you're parroting on and on about an entirely irrelevant issue, don't you? I mean, any behaviour which has been left undefined in the international standard only means that there is a chance that two implementations may not implement the same obscure aspect exactly alike. And that's perfectly fine because these obscure corner cases shouldn't be used to begin with. That's what undefined behaviour does mean in practice. But even if you for some obscure and irrational reason care enough to rely on behaviour left undefined then you also go another standard approach: adopt a specific implementation and check how the behavior was implemented. Additionally, rust and go and python and other programming languages are not defined at all and somehow programmers don't get bothered by the fact that these programming languages are entirely undefined. But somehow you feel differently about a language you clearly know nothing about.
- seanwilson 9y ago
  > But even if you for some obscure and irrational reason care enough to rely on behaviour left undefined then you also go another standard approach: adopt a specific implementation and check how the behavior was implemented. By undefined behaviour, I mean things like null dereferences, buffer overflows, memory leaks etc. that are done by accident and result in serious issues at runtime. I'd rather use a safer language where I can be more productive where possible. Sounds like you're talking about implementation defined behaviour or unspecified behaviour which are different from undefined behaviour (these three terms are defined in the C++ standard document). > But somehow you feel differently about a language you clearly know nothing about. You're not even trying to understand the point you're leaping to attack. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about something.