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The Obama administration's "Computer Science For All" initiative and the Trump administration's new effort are both based on the idea that computer programming

by dkarl 9y ago

The Obama administration's "Computer Science For All" initiative and the Trump administration's new effort are both based on the idea that computer programming is not only a fun and exciting activity, but a necessary skill for the jobs of the future. Why should I read beyond this? If this were truly the justification for the program, it would be patently ridiculous — as ridiculous as claiming that solving algebra problems was a necessary skill for the jobs of the 20th century — but I doubt anyone ever seriously described it that way. The Obama announcement is still on the web[1] (I assume Trump's initiative is only described in a semiliterate 3am tweet) and it describes tech careers as fun, not programming, and it touts the value of "computational thinking skills" for many jobs, not programming. Teaching programming in schools is akin to teaching algebra or history. There's a spectrum of effects: some kids will develop the skill further and use it directly in their work, some will get a basic understanding that will enable them to work effectively with the first group, and the rest will get some exposure that will make them more effective people (for their own purposes and everyone else's) in a society where it's a powerful force shaping everything around us. If the author can't make their point without basing it on this fundamental misrepresentation, I won't bother clicking through. [1] https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/01/30/computer-science-all https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/01/30/compute...

Nursie 9y ago
Well said. It's not important everyone becomes a proficient programmer - it's important kids are exposed to the ideasand given the knowledge and oportunity to pursue it further if they want. Like with most other school subjects.
- kazen44 9y ago
  >It's not important everyone becomes a proficient programmer programming is a tiny subsection of a far larger and more useful skill that should be thought more, analytical thinking. learning kids how to break down problems into smaller ones, how to think logically etc is far, far more useful then learning them programming.
  - Nursie 9y ago
    Both are useful, and in world where code resides in dozens of devices in your daily life an exposure to it will be useful and help your picture of the world.
PantaloonFlames 9y ago
I had to read your post 3 times and I still don't understand the source of your disagreement. You wrote that exposure will "make them more effective people" and the the author's wording was "a necessary skill for jobs of the future." Are those two things materially different? or in conflict AT ALL? You called the latter "patently ridiculous" but then made a very similar argument. I don't get it. Splitting hairs?
- dkarl 9y ago
  Those are vastly different things. Computer programming is a necessary skill for a small number of technical positions in software development, data analysis, and research, a tiny percentage of the jobs in the economy. Even at a midsize SAAS company, 30% or more of the positions don't require programming. Teaching computer science to every single kid because a tiny percentage will need programming for their job would be ridiculous, just like it would be ridiculous to teach every kid history because writing research papers is a "necessary skill for the jobs of the future." You can, however, make a reasonable argument that kids should be exposed to powerful ways of thinking that shape their world, and that learning concrete skills (writing a program, writing a research paper, solving equations) is a good way to familiarize kids with new ways of thinking. The arguments are only similar in that they both claim that studying a topic in school will have some benefit later. That isn't a high degree of similarity in the context of asking what students should study in school.
  - nerdponx 9y ago
    I'm not sure I agree. Knowing programming specifically -- how computers work, and how to write scripts to control them and automate your workflow -- rarely does not have a positive impact on your productivity at work and your aptitude in understanding the world around you. Computational thinking is important as well, but you can't discount the practical angle here.
    - dkarl 9y ago
      Oh, sure, I agree with you on that. I'm just contrasting the actual stated purposes of such programs with the author's strawman version of them.
nanomoose 9y ago
Well... if you read up to that point you would also have read "is the key to the future for both children and adults alike" - and you've only addressed the kids bit. I think the silly craze has died down a bit in the UK, but a few years ago we were subjected to such excitement as the news highlighting activities like c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks - 10 o'clock news?! This may have been about the same time as the BBC microbit was produced - I've heard nothing of that recently either. Easiest way to confirm it was a silly craze is to watch peak daft hysteria disappear into the distance.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dkarl 9y ago
  The idea of making some degree of programming universal in the school curriculum both predates and will outlast the craze you're talking about. I don't know about the Trump plan, but Obama proposed spending hundreds of millions of dollars changing the way hundreds of millions of elementary to high school aged kids are taught. If such a program is carried out, the effects and the costs will be felt over decades. c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks This just doesn't sound weird to me at all. CTOs read about marketing and finance; pharma CFOs read about biochemistry. Execs spend an afternoon working in the call center or learning to operate a jackhammer to prove they're regular guys. It's what you get when you mix ambition, personal curiosity, image awareness, and having the authority to make stuff like that happen. In that context it's not as significant as the 10 o'clock news might make it sound.
- watwut 9y ago
  I did learned about loosely related to my job topics or on the news topics over lunch breaks and evenings. I am programmer, but I did read up on management, accounting, physics, art, biology, finance, children, history etc. I dont think any of that was silly. For many people, the idea that they could do learn some programming was new and they were curios just as I was about the above. Pretty much any temporary hobby people tend to do is like that - something wakes up curiosity and ambition. Network effect is usually smaller, it is just one company or office doing the thing, but when it is in the news a lot of them gonna do it at the same time.
whytaka 9y ago
Solving algebra problems IS a core requirement for living in this day and age. It's a key component of financial literacy and those inadequately familiarized with the material suffer greatly from it.

by dkarl 9y ago

Nursie 9y ago

Well said. It's not important everyone becomes a proficient programmer - it's important kids are exposed to the ideasand given the knowledge and oportunity to pursue it further if they want. Like with most other school subjects.

kazen44 9y ago
>It's not important everyone becomes a proficient programmer programming is a tiny subsection of a far larger and more useful skill that should be thought more, analytical thinking. learning kids how to break down problems into smaller ones, how to think logically etc is far, far more useful then learning them programming.
- Nursie 9y ago
  Both are useful, and in world where code resides in dozens of devices in your daily life an exposure to it will be useful and help your picture of the world.

PantaloonFlames 9y ago

I had to read your post 3 times and I still don't understand the source of your disagreement. You wrote that exposure will "make them more effective people" and the the author's wording was "a necessary skill for jobs of the future." Are those two things materially different? or in conflict AT ALL? You called the latter "patently ridiculous" but then made a very similar argument. I don't get it. Splitting hairs?

dkarl 9y ago
Those are vastly different things. Computer programming is a necessary skill for a small number of technical positions in software development, data analysis, and research, a tiny percentage of the jobs in the economy. Even at a midsize SAAS company, 30% or more of the positions don't require programming. Teaching computer science to every single kid because a tiny percentage will need programming for their job would be ridiculous, just like it would be ridiculous to teach every kid history because writing research papers is a "necessary skill for the jobs of the future." You can, however, make a reasonable argument that kids should be exposed to powerful ways of thinking that shape their world, and that learning concrete skills (writing a program, writing a research paper, solving equations) is a good way to familiarize kids with new ways of thinking. The arguments are only similar in that they both claim that studying a topic in school will have some benefit later. That isn't a high degree of similarity in the context of asking what students should study in school.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  I'm not sure I agree. Knowing programming specifically -- how computers work, and how to write scripts to control them and automate your workflow -- rarely does not have a positive impact on your productivity at work and your aptitude in understanding the world around you. Computational thinking is important as well, but you can't discount the practical angle here.
  - dkarl 9y ago
    Oh, sure, I agree with you on that. I'm just contrasting the actual stated purposes of such programs with the author's strawman version of them.

nanomoose 9y ago

Well... if you read up to that point you would also have read "is the key to the future for both children and adults alike" - and you've only addressed the kids bit. I think the silly craze has died down a bit in the UK, but a few years ago we were subjected to such excitement as the news highlighting activities like c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks - 10 o'clock news?! This may have been about the same time as the BBC microbit was produced - I've heard nothing of that recently either. Easiest way to confirm it was a silly craze is to watch peak daft hysteria disappear into the distance.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dkarl 9y ago
The idea of making some degree of programming universal in the school curriculum both predates and will outlast the craze you're talking about. I don't know about the Trump plan, but Obama proposed spending hundreds of millions of dollars changing the way hundreds of millions of elementary to high school aged kids are taught. If such a program is carried out, the effects and the costs will be felt over decades. c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks This just doesn't sound weird to me at all. CTOs read about marketing and finance; pharma CFOs read about biochemistry. Execs spend an afternoon working in the call center or learning to operate a jackhammer to prove they're regular guys. It's what you get when you mix ambition, personal curiosity, image awareness, and having the authority to make stuff like that happen. In that context it's not as significant as the 10 o'clock news might make it sound.
watwut 9y ago
I did learned about loosely related to my job topics or on the news topics over lunch breaks and evenings. I am programmer, but I did read up on management, accounting, physics, art, biology, finance, children, history etc. I dont think any of that was silly. For many people, the idea that they could do learn some programming was new and they were curios just as I was about the above. Pretty much any temporary hobby people tend to do is like that - something wakes up curiosity and ambition. Network effect is usually smaller, it is just one company or office doing the thing, but when it is in the news a lot of them gonna do it at the same time.

whytaka 9y ago

Solving algebra problems IS a core requirement for living in this day and age. It's a key component of financial literacy and those inadequately familiarized with the material suffer greatly from it.