4 ms·

When the discrepancy in power between you and another player is so great that you can't possibly win, "challenging" isn't the right word. When griefers can lock

When the discrepancy in power between you and another player is so great that you can't possibly win, "challenging" isn't the right word. When griefers can lock new players out of the game, that game has a serious problem. Very few players think being bullied is any fun at all.

Tyrant505 16y ago
What's your highest score in Donkey Kong?(Billy Mitchell was once again certified as the world record holder(recent relevance)). Games used to be "challenging". Not to say these early games were the best way to monetize, but I believe you cannot discredit them as "good games," because they were fun to play! MMORPG's can find a player base larger then a "few" by providing a player initiated obstacle.
- chc 16y ago
  Is "player-initiated obstacle" a euphemism for murdering lower-level toons and taking all their loot? If so, I don't see where the fun comes in for most people. The thing about games is that, even when they're challenging, there needs to be thought and care put into balancing the challenges. Griefers don't do this. That's why they're called "griefers" rather than "funners." The reason this is an especially big problem in RPGs (more than, say, an FPS) is the defining quality of the genre — character progression. To my level 3 bard, your level 100 demon master is much more than an obstacle, he's the equivalent of the 256th level of Pac-Man. Game over, instantly. I used to think the way you do, because it really does sound nice in theory. But it requires a very special kind of community to make work, and most gamers do not have a place there, and I don't know any way to apply the right kind of social pressure to make sure everybody is dedicated to making the game fun at the expense of winning.
  - Tyrant505 16y ago
    Well, it comes down to what you would rather immerse yourself in: PvM or PVP. To me, now given our ability to create these worlds I would rather have the level 100 Demon master be a person instead of AI. Yes, that demon might lie in between to great cities which i need courier between, but never-the-less a villan to overcome.
    - chc 16y ago
      Except it's not a choice between a level 100 demon master controlled by a person or an AI. The developers would not put a game-breaking, completely unbeatable opponent right at the start of the game. I mean, if that's really the experience you want, I'll write you a "challenging" RPG where you die in three turns no matter what you do. As I said, I really like PVP. I wish it worked that way you're talking about, but it doesn't. When I used to play WOW, I played PVP, hoping for exactly the experience you're describing. But it didn't mean fun challenges to overcome, where enemy players are a great obstacle to overcome. It meant getting stunlocked and then finally killed by a rogue 30 levels above me. There's no overcoming that. The only winning move is not to play.
      - joeyo 16y ago
        > I mean, if that's really the experience you want, I'll > write you a "challenging" RPG where you die in three turns > no matter what you do. I guess you've never played nethack? ;-)
lreeves 16y ago
EVE handles it fairly well though; there's a large area that's mostly secure in the center of the game universe for Empire space. Players can stick to that area and be almost grief free the entire time (aside from the rare suicide attack). Having said that, the most fun in EVE Online comes from playing in the less secure areas where the interactions are almost all player-driven.

Tyrant505 16y ago

What's your highest score in Donkey Kong?(Billy Mitchell was once again certified as the world record holder(recent relevance)). Games used to be "challenging". Not to say these early games were the best way to monetize, but I believe you cannot discredit them as "good games," because they were fun to play! MMORPG's can find a player base larger then a "few" by providing a player initiated obstacle.

chc 16y ago
Is "player-initiated obstacle" a euphemism for murdering lower-level toons and taking all their loot? If so, I don't see where the fun comes in for most people. The thing about games is that, even when they're challenging, there needs to be thought and care put into balancing the challenges. Griefers don't do this. That's why they're called "griefers" rather than "funners." The reason this is an especially big problem in RPGs (more than, say, an FPS) is the defining quality of the genre — character progression. To my level 3 bard, your level 100 demon master is much more than an obstacle, he's the equivalent of the 256th level of Pac-Man. Game over, instantly. I used to think the way you do, because it really does sound nice in theory. But it requires a very special kind of community to make work, and most gamers do not have a place there, and I don't know any way to apply the right kind of social pressure to make sure everybody is dedicated to making the game fun at the expense of winning.
- Tyrant505 16y ago
  Well, it comes down to what you would rather immerse yourself in: PvM or PVP. To me, now given our ability to create these worlds I would rather have the level 100 Demon master be a person instead of AI. Yes, that demon might lie in between to great cities which i need courier between, but never-the-less a villan to overcome.
  - chc 16y ago
    Except it's not a choice between a level 100 demon master controlled by a person or an AI. The developers would not put a game-breaking, completely unbeatable opponent right at the start of the game. I mean, if that's really the experience you want, I'll write you a "challenging" RPG where you die in three turns no matter what you do. As I said, I really like PVP. I wish it worked that way you're talking about, but it doesn't. When I used to play WOW, I played PVP, hoping for exactly the experience you're describing. But it didn't mean fun challenges to overcome, where enemy players are a great obstacle to overcome. It meant getting stunlocked and then finally killed by a rogue 30 levels above me. There's no overcoming that. The only winning move is not to play.
    - joeyo 16y ago
      > I mean, if that's really the experience you want, I'll > write you a "challenging" RPG where you die in three turns > no matter what you do. I guess you've never played nethack? ;-)

lreeves 16y ago

EVE handles it fairly well though; there's a large area that's mostly secure in the center of the game universe for Empire space. Players can stick to that area and be almost grief free the entire time (aside from the rare suicide attack). Having said that, the most fun in EVE Online comes from playing in the less secure areas where the interactions are almost all player-driven.