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> There is so much potential for someone to create the killer mmorpg which doesn't nerf real economies and vilans. Unfortunately, such an MMO would not be econ

> There is so much potential for someone to create the killer mmorpg which doesn't nerf real economies and vilans. Unfortunately, such an MMO would not be economically stable in the real world in the medium and long term. Most people who play games do so as an escape, not as a proxy for real life power politics. If nothing else, any game content dependent on loss mechanics tend to become avoided by players past a certain user base size, as they figure out which game content is lower risk. (Grinding boss runs and the like, for example.) Yes, for some players, this isn’t “fun,” but game designers have to focus on where the majority of gamers who provide the monthly fees or “freemium” content. EVE is the only MMO I’m aware of that avoided this problem, but it has done so at the cost of being confined to a very tight user community with limited prospects for growth or mainstream awareness. EVE doesn’t sound very fun to me; the requirement to make corps (guilds in other games) and be beholden to your peers makes the social stress requirement worse than public school and megacorp office work in my mind.

Tyrant505 16y ago
I would consider WoW, EQ, and others(Perfect World), economic successes of course. It depends what do you want to create: shareholder value or a great game. Perhaps there is a middle ground! Believe me when I say we are at the cusp of such online worlds. UO is still online. Guess how many years! But, how much profit is enough? When I "escape," I can/'t help but expect the basic rules of property and ownership to entail the possibility such property to be stolen or taken! (I would rather be subject to such in a game, rather than real-life of course.) What is the root of your escape? How do you need to do so? To me, giving real life attributes to a game allows people to choose different paths than they normally would which provides that escape you deem important. "Immersion" is of course the goal however. Personally, I don't even like character level-ups. I much preferred UO's skill based numerics. I didn't even mind Stat-loss era when, if you died as a PK, you would be penalized 20% of your skills when it was heavily weighed at the higher end(it took just as long to get from 80 to 90 magery as 99 to 100.)
- DLWormwood 16y ago
  > I would consider WoW, EQ, and others(Perfect World), economic successes of course. I wasn’t referring to MMOs in general, but those that assess the players various forms of "loss" for sloppy play. I played WoW for about a year, and for the most part, the game has mostly removed the "loss mechanics" that the original poster was complaining were absent in most modern MMOs. Originally, WoW had experience and even equipment loss penalties for dying too much. These have gone by the wayside, as well as making the crafting mechanics in the game more about personal buffs than creating goods for an economy, something that EVE is supposed to excel at.
- mkr-hn 16y ago
  In real life, you have prevention and recourse. I can buy insurance on the contents of my home and car, and I can put serial numbers on my stuff to substantially increase the chance of the police getting it back to me. It's also a very unlikely thing in real life. In a game with penalties, it happens often (because there are no real life risks for doing it), and your only recourse is getting stronger and doing the same thing to the person who did it to you. I play games for fun, not to bring the negatives of life along for the ride. If you see the negatives as positives, you wouldn't understand why someone would think like I do. Revenge-based gameplay seems extremely boring (and frustrating) to me. I think the success of games like WoW over games with significant death penalties shows which viewpoint is more common.
Tichy 16y ago
And yet, people also play a lot of games where they can lose, for example games like chess. Why shouldn't a "dangerous" MMORPG also be able to provide an escape from reality. Another example of a "dangerous" CRPG would be nethack, which also is played by many people. ("dangerous" meaning permanent deaths and stuff like that).
- DLWormwood 16y ago
  Chess is a bad example, since the only thing you lose is maybe a few hours of time. There’s nothing stopping you from playing a new game with all your pieces back. The roguelike games are a better example, though. However, they are for the most part very niche. (Full disclosure: heavy Moria/Angband player in college.) When such a game goes commercial, like Diablo or Torchlight, they invariably make “hardcore” an optional, unlockable mode instead of the default.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Technically you also only lose a few hours of time in a "dangerous" MMORPG. It's just that it might be a lot of hours :-) I know, the odds don't look good. On the other hand, EVE seems to prevail, and there are people who long for that kind of environment. I guess it is always the choice: create something really good, and hopefully survive making a decent dough, or target the masses with a less worthy product, but making more money.

Tyrant505 16y ago

I would consider WoW, EQ, and others(Perfect World), economic successes of course. It depends what do you want to create: shareholder value or a great game. Perhaps there is a middle ground! Believe me when I say we are at the cusp of such online worlds. UO is still online. Guess how many years! But, how much profit is enough? When I "escape," I can/'t help but expect the basic rules of property and ownership to entail the possibility such property to be stolen or taken! (I would rather be subject to such in a game, rather than real-life of course.) What is the root of your escape? How do you need to do so? To me, giving real life attributes to a game allows people to choose different paths than they normally would which provides that escape you deem important. "Immersion" is of course the goal however. Personally, I don't even like character level-ups. I much preferred UO's skill based numerics. I didn't even mind Stat-loss era when, if you died as a PK, you would be penalized 20% of your skills when it was heavily weighed at the higher end(it took just as long to get from 80 to 90 magery as 99 to 100.)

DLWormwood 16y ago
> I would consider WoW, EQ, and others(Perfect World), economic successes of course. I wasn’t referring to MMOs in general, but those that assess the players various forms of "loss" for sloppy play. I played WoW for about a year, and for the most part, the game has mostly removed the "loss mechanics" that the original poster was complaining were absent in most modern MMOs. Originally, WoW had experience and even equipment loss penalties for dying too much. These have gone by the wayside, as well as making the crafting mechanics in the game more about personal buffs than creating goods for an economy, something that EVE is supposed to excel at.
mkr-hn 16y ago
In real life, you have prevention and recourse. I can buy insurance on the contents of my home and car, and I can put serial numbers on my stuff to substantially increase the chance of the police getting it back to me. It's also a very unlikely thing in real life. In a game with penalties, it happens often (because there are no real life risks for doing it), and your only recourse is getting stronger and doing the same thing to the person who did it to you. I play games for fun, not to bring the negatives of life along for the ride. If you see the negatives as positives, you wouldn't understand why someone would think like I do. Revenge-based gameplay seems extremely boring (and frustrating) to me. I think the success of games like WoW over games with significant death penalties shows which viewpoint is more common.

Tichy 16y ago

And yet, people also play a lot of games where they can lose, for example games like chess. Why shouldn't a "dangerous" MMORPG also be able to provide an escape from reality. Another example of a "dangerous" CRPG would be nethack, which also is played by many people. ("dangerous" meaning permanent deaths and stuff like that).

DLWormwood 16y ago
Chess is a bad example, since the only thing you lose is maybe a few hours of time. There’s nothing stopping you from playing a new game with all your pieces back. The roguelike games are a better example, though. However, they are for the most part very niche. (Full disclosure: heavy Moria/Angband player in college.) When such a game goes commercial, like Diablo or Torchlight, they invariably make “hardcore” an optional, unlockable mode instead of the default.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Technically you also only lose a few hours of time in a "dangerous" MMORPG. It's just that it might be a lot of hours :-) I know, the odds don't look good. On the other hand, EVE seems to prevail, and there are people who long for that kind of environment. I guess it is always the choice: create something really good, and hopefully survive making a decent dough, or target the masses with a less worthy product, but making more money.