7 ms·

Last Psychiatrist rebuttal to "why parents hate parenting"

87 points by delackner 16y ago

delackner 16y ago
Wouldn't normally post this, but the original article appeared on HN recently as well, and I think this rebuttal has some really good insights on adjusting our thought processes and expectations.
- andreyf 16y ago
  I would have posted it if I thought there was one other who read thelastpsych :) Seriously, I highly recommend the rest of his posts (if you can forgive the ads and site layout).
  - delackner 16y ago
    Discovered it today from a previous thread on HN, and was immediately sucked in to reading nonstop. Our minds are the most important program we have any control over modifying, even if the interface is pretty bizarre.
bajsejohannes 16y ago
I only recently realized* and internalized the fact that I don't need to have children. The social pressure to do it is enormous, even if it is not explicit. This article is yet another data point that it is not a good idea to have kids unless you actually want to. * Through this wonderfully thought-provoking site: http://vhemt.org/ http://vhemt.org/ . Highly recommended read.
- wyclif 16y ago
  I think you completely missed the irony of the article.
  - bajsejohannes 16y ago
    I guess I did, and I still do - I didn't see any irony there, just analyzing and poking fun at the original article. I might have read it a bit to quickly, but what I got out of it was that kids won't make you any more or less happy than you were: The original article stating that you will become unhappy, and this rebuttal saying that your happiness is determined by yourself, not your kid. So my conclusion was -- though poorly worded -- that, if I don't really want kids now, I certainly won't be happier if I DO try to get one now.
- barrkel 16y ago
  I found vhemt.org unfunny, bleating and dim-witted. The very dogma it attacks is on the basis of another dogma, almost entirely composed out of the naturalistic fallacy and appeal to nature. YMMV.
  - bajsejohannes 16y ago
    I certainly agree that they take it too far. I don't see what's so great about a planet with no people, and how it is it better than what we have now. What I do find interesting, is the idea that having a child can be seen in an environmental and altruistic light. For me, it was a new thought that not having kids might be a good choice for myself, my girlfriend and the world in general. An empty world would be a horribly sad thing, but perhaps a billion fewer people would make the world better for the remaining six billion. (And for the record, I'm talking about voluntarily getting fewer, not any forced methods)
    - Tichy 16y ago
      Wouldn't the exact same arguments also work for suicide? Just saying - there might be other aspects we tend to consider when deciding to stay alive.
- three14 16y ago
  vhemt.org seems like a wonderful Christian-fundamentalist right-winger site. Just persuade all the liberals to stop breeding, and wait a few years.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Unfortunately (perhaps?), those ideas seem to have become very popular (I have heard from many people that they don't want to have children because there already are too many people). Not saying people should have children, but to not have children for ideological reasons seems likely to backfire. The problem with children is that eventually it is too late to change one's mind, at least for women.
- qjz 16y ago
  The pressure to have children is biological. If you could measure it, there is arguably more social pressure NOT to have children than otherwise.
  - telemachos 16y ago
    How about this? The biological pressure is to have sex, and only indirectly to have children. The only direct pressure to have children (as such) is social (people asking about grandchildren, cultural values, tax rates, etc.). I'm not sure if I believe this, but I do want to distinguish the target of the biological drive versus the social pushing. On the other side, why do you think there is more social pressure not to have children? As a (childless) married male in his 40s, I can say I've experienced a ton of social pressure to have children and zero pressure not to. I grant that this is anecdotal, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement on - no evidence comes to mind.
    - DannoHung 16y ago
      There is a biological pressure to have grandchildren. That is why there is a social pressure to have children.
    - pchristensen 16y ago
      "The biological pressure is to have sex, and only indirectly to have children." I'm guessing you're a man.
      - telemachos 16y ago
        You don't have to guess if you read my response. That said, I believe the same goes for women. The biological push is towards sex; children are a result (sometimes) of the sex. (You can argue about variance of intensity or frequency of desire among males and females, of course. I'm not sure what I think about all that, though my instinct is to say that a lot of the variance is cultural rather than biological. But that's neither here nor there, at the moment.) Here's a way to play with this claim. Imagine you have a person (male or female) in the right age range. Would giving the person a child to care for by itself remove or diminish the person's desire for sex? I'm not so sure. (Note, I'm not talking about exhaustion due to taking care of a child - a clear side-effect, nor about the biological changes that occur after childbirth.) Again, I'm thinking about this issue myself, but I don't think it's cut-and-dried male/female, as you imply.
leftnode 16y ago
This is good advice. In the words of the great George Carlin: "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." (See: http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/children/fuck_the_children http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/children/fuck_the_children) Or another good article on the subject of leaving your kids alone: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-parenting-means-happy-children.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-... It's great advice.
- bmj 16y ago
  I agree, and follow the advice with my kids. But this is the key bit: When you have something to offer, maximize and concentrate that time, and then get the hell out of the way. I know some parents that kneejerk to helicopter parenting by not parenting at all. As with most things, neither pole is very effective.
- scotty79 16y ago
  > Kids don't smoke because a camel in sunglasses tells them to. They smoke for the same reasons adults do, because it's an enjoyable activity that relieves anxiety and depression. He totally lost me here.
  - neutronicus 16y ago
    That is almost word-for-word why my sister told me that she started smoking at age 20.
    - GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
      Kids mimic you. You smoke, guess what your kids will think (the same thing I thought) "wow, everyone seems to be enjoying it, I wonder what the fuss is about". With my sister, I grew up telling her about what smoking feels like and the addiction. Guess why she does not smoke... Its not a big curiosity anymore for her, she just knows nothing good will come of it. She also tried (unsuccessfully) to get my mom to quit smoking. She understand addiction and why its bad to start. Once you realize just how much they mimic its incredible the things you can realize. When I saw my daughter standing idly doing the same little motions with her feet as I do when I stand Idly, I realized: Nothing too little will go unnoticed with the child, the child will pick up on everything I do and thus if I want her not to do it, I must MODEL the right way for her.
scotty79 16y ago
> Because, you know, no Scandinavian women ever kill themselves at double the rate of Americans. Is that true? All women or only mothers? This would be a strange bias. General suicide rates are not that much different?
- Tichy 16y ago
  One aspect is that in Scandinavia winters are very long.
  - scotty79 16y ago
    That was my first thought but I checked suicide rates by country and they are not much different between Sweden, Canada and US. Now I noticed that there's list of suicide rates by country and gender here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates There seems to be higher rate of suicides in females in northern countries but they are much less likely to commit suicide than males. Suicides in males seem to be correlated more with economic situation that latitude. Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much child care is provided by the state seems unfounded.
    - furyg3 16y ago
      > Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much child care is provided by the state seems unfounded. I don't think that that was the assumption made in the article. The original NY article made some vague claims about scandinavian women being happier and that being somehow tied to childcare... which was not thought out or supported in any way. The author of the rebuttal article used the suicide rates to show that other conclusions could easily be made about the happiness of scandinavian women.
      - scotty79 16y ago
        Lack of support for this claim in that NY article is not proof for it's falseness. Author in his rebuttal also did not show that suicide rates of women correlate with their happiness nor that their average happiness of all woman in the country has anything to do with amount of child care provided free if charge. I think it's far worse because he claims that more people help you with your burdens the less happy you are which seems paradoxical and tries to found this claim with suicide rates which seem to have some apparent correlation with how much sunlight individuals get. I personally know young mother who gives her 3 year old daughter all her awake time and I find it hard to believe how she could not benefit from easing up getting child care for her. 24 hours in a day is for one person just barely enough to take care of the kid. You need other peoples help and I don't see how making it easier could lead to lower happiness let alone increasing suicide rates.
GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
Ok heres my response to the 8yo watching a movie and the mother wanting the child to go do homework. Parents NEED to understand the difference in age. Don't YOU hate it when you have to stop watching a movie you are interested in mid-way and do something you don't want to. Well a child has a harder time coping. Imagine your mother walks in on you fucking your girlfriend, and says in a pleasant voice (she ain't being a bitch) "honey, please get out of her and wash the dishes". Imagine the response you will have. Now imagine the request "honey, I know I'm heavily intruding but you haven't done the dishes in 3 days and I am hungry, so finish up in 15 minutes and wash the damn dishes!" I assure you the second scenario will make YOU feel responsible for the fact that this shit happened, maybe even embarrassed. But the message is VERY different. There was no painless way to get into the situation but it was as painless as possible given the circumstances and the blame now lies in the appropriate party. You need to alert the child that "homework is coming" give em a few minutes to cope, make sure they understand they have a few minutes and let that brain work at the coping, it just takes time. Be consistent with it. Also important to let the child know why it's their fault they have to stop, if the child did the homework first the child would have the ability to watch the movie without interruption. (make sure to not go back on your word, because that will not help later on). Now if the movie is on disk, let the child know you can pause and resume later, if not, hell 5 bucks to download the movie and let your kid watch it is worth it. With children every potential conflict can be turned into a learning experience one way or another. The problem is the going up to a child "turn of the tv and do homework". To a child that might be too sudden and too intense to immediately cope with. I am 26 years old and already me and my wife noticed these little things. Most the conflicts with my 3.5year old is avoided. AND she does what we want her to do. Sometimes we turn chores into a game, sometimes we turn something she dreads into something "fun" because we join her. Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS. Believe it or not, the child will want to do things differently than you do. Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is alright, so let them have their way. The child NEEDS to feel some control over their life, give them inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine it does not match, who cares. You will have to dedicate yourself to the kids, but thats what parenting is about.
- jules 16y ago
  > Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS. Believe it or not, the child will want to do things differently than you do. Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is alright, so let them have their way. The child NEEDS to feel some control over their life, give them inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine it does not match, who cares. This is very important. I don't have kids but I have been one. When I see parents micro managing their kids I feel sorry for them. Let your kids explore and decide and learn. Make "yes" the default answer.
balding_n_tired 16y ago
Kind of fish in a barrel stuff, but the markmanship is fine at that range.
flybrand 16y ago
Is this just an example of how 'big media' is often held to lower standards than a blogger? Blog posts are often labeled as flame-baiting or simply trying to promote self interest (eg - articles that knock 37signals / Calacanis / Apple fan boys, etc.). The original article was pretty shallow; Jennifer Senior, the author, followed the conventional Gladwell-style of anecdote and insight mixed with research. TLP's dismantling of the original New Yorker article isn't as rough as it could have been. The original article got attention, was up-voted here and elsewhere, in many ways because of the provocative title, which wasn't well supported in the article. Thankfully, someone has pointed this out. Had this article been on LISP, geo-location, web2 business models, this community could have done it on its own, but here having someone who is a relative expert (assumed to be the case given TLP's title) was needed. [Side note - I am the father of two kids under age 4 and my wife has a master's degree in education and teaches. I disliked the original article.]

87 points by delackner 16y ago

Wouldn't normally post this, but the original article appeared on HN recently as well, and I think this rebuttal has some really good insights on adjusting our thought processes and expectations.

andreyf 16y ago
I would have posted it if I thought there was one other who read thelastpsych :) Seriously, I highly recommend the rest of his posts (if you can forgive the ads and site layout).
- delackner 16y ago
  Discovered it today from a previous thread on HN, and was immediately sucked in to reading nonstop. Our minds are the most important program we have any control over modifying, even if the interface is pretty bizarre.

bajsejohannes 16y ago

I only recently realized* and internalized the fact that I don't need to have children. The social pressure to do it is enormous, even if it is not explicit. This article is yet another data point that it is not a good idea to have kids unless you actually want to. * Through this wonderfully thought-provoking site: http://vhemt.org/ http://vhemt.org/ . Highly recommended read.

wyclif 16y ago
I think you completely missed the irony of the article.
- bajsejohannes 16y ago
  I guess I did, and I still do - I didn't see any irony there, just analyzing and poking fun at the original article. I might have read it a bit to quickly, but what I got out of it was that kids won't make you any more or less happy than you were: The original article stating that you will become unhappy, and this rebuttal saying that your happiness is determined by yourself, not your kid. So my conclusion was -- though poorly worded -- that, if I don't really want kids now, I certainly won't be happier if I DO try to get one now.
barrkel 16y ago
I found vhemt.org unfunny, bleating and dim-witted. The very dogma it attacks is on the basis of another dogma, almost entirely composed out of the naturalistic fallacy and appeal to nature. YMMV.
- bajsejohannes 16y ago
  I certainly agree that they take it too far. I don't see what's so great about a planet with no people, and how it is it better than what we have now. What I do find interesting, is the idea that having a child can be seen in an environmental and altruistic light. For me, it was a new thought that not having kids might be a good choice for myself, my girlfriend and the world in general. An empty world would be a horribly sad thing, but perhaps a billion fewer people would make the world better for the remaining six billion. (And for the record, I'm talking about voluntarily getting fewer, not any forced methods)
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Wouldn't the exact same arguments also work for suicide? Just saying - there might be other aspects we tend to consider when deciding to stay alive.
three14 16y ago
vhemt.org seems like a wonderful Christian-fundamentalist right-winger site. Just persuade all the liberals to stop breeding, and wait a few years.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Unfortunately (perhaps?), those ideas seem to have become very popular (I have heard from many people that they don't want to have children because there already are too many people). Not saying people should have children, but to not have children for ideological reasons seems likely to backfire. The problem with children is that eventually it is too late to change one's mind, at least for women.
qjz 16y ago
The pressure to have children is biological. If you could measure it, there is arguably more social pressure NOT to have children than otherwise.
- telemachos 16y ago
  How about this? The biological pressure is to have sex, and only indirectly to have children. The only direct pressure to have children (as such) is social (people asking about grandchildren, cultural values, tax rates, etc.). I'm not sure if I believe this, but I do want to distinguish the target of the biological drive versus the social pushing. On the other side, why do you think there is more social pressure not to have children? As a (childless) married male in his 40s, I can say I've experienced a ton of social pressure to have children and zero pressure not to. I grant that this is anecdotal, but I'm not sure what you're basing your statement on - no evidence comes to mind.
  - DannoHung 16y ago
    There is a biological pressure to have grandchildren. That is why there is a social pressure to have children.
  - pchristensen 16y ago
    "The biological pressure is to have sex, and only indirectly to have children." I'm guessing you're a man.
    - telemachos 16y ago
      You don't have to guess if you read my response. That said, I believe the same goes for women. The biological push is towards sex; children are a result (sometimes) of the sex. (You can argue about variance of intensity or frequency of desire among males and females, of course. I'm not sure what I think about all that, though my instinct is to say that a lot of the variance is cultural rather than biological. But that's neither here nor there, at the moment.) Here's a way to play with this claim. Imagine you have a person (male or female) in the right age range. Would giving the person a child to care for by itself remove or diminish the person's desire for sex? I'm not so sure. (Note, I'm not talking about exhaustion due to taking care of a child - a clear side-effect, nor about the biological changes that occur after childbirth.) Again, I'm thinking about this issue myself, but I don't think it's cut-and-dried male/female, as you imply.

leftnode 16y ago

This is good advice. In the words of the great George Carlin: "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." (See: http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/children/fuck_the_children http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/children/fuck_the_children) Or another good article on the subject of leaving your kids alone: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-parenting-means-happy-children.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/3355719/Idle-... It's great advice.

bmj 16y ago
I agree, and follow the advice with my kids. But this is the key bit: When you have something to offer, maximize and concentrate that time, and then get the hell out of the way. I know some parents that kneejerk to helicopter parenting by not parenting at all. As with most things, neither pole is very effective.
scotty79 16y ago
> Kids don't smoke because a camel in sunglasses tells them to. They smoke for the same reasons adults do, because it's an enjoyable activity that relieves anxiety and depression. He totally lost me here.
- neutronicus 16y ago
  That is almost word-for-word why my sister told me that she started smoking at age 20.
  - GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
    Kids mimic you. You smoke, guess what your kids will think (the same thing I thought) "wow, everyone seems to be enjoying it, I wonder what the fuss is about". With my sister, I grew up telling her about what smoking feels like and the addiction. Guess why she does not smoke... Its not a big curiosity anymore for her, she just knows nothing good will come of it. She also tried (unsuccessfully) to get my mom to quit smoking. She understand addiction and why its bad to start. Once you realize just how much they mimic its incredible the things you can realize. When I saw my daughter standing idly doing the same little motions with her feet as I do when I stand Idly, I realized: Nothing too little will go unnoticed with the child, the child will pick up on everything I do and thus if I want her not to do it, I must MODEL the right way for her.

scotty79 16y ago

> Because, you know, no Scandinavian women ever kill themselves at double the rate of Americans. Is that true? All women or only mothers? This would be a strange bias. General suicide rates are not that much different?

Tichy 16y ago
One aspect is that in Scandinavia winters are very long.
- scotty79 16y ago
  That was my first thought but I checked suicide rates by country and they are not much different between Sweden, Canada and US. Now I noticed that there's list of suicide rates by country and gender here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates There seems to be higher rate of suicides in females in northern countries but they are much less likely to commit suicide than males. Suicides in males seem to be correlated more with economic situation that latitude. Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much child care is provided by the state seems unfounded.
  - furyg3 16y ago
    > Assumption made in article that suicide rates are correlated with how much child care is provided by the state seems unfounded. I don't think that that was the assumption made in the article. The original NY article made some vague claims about scandinavian women being happier and that being somehow tied to childcare... which was not thought out or supported in any way. The author of the rebuttal article used the suicide rates to show that other conclusions could easily be made about the happiness of scandinavian women.
    - scotty79 16y ago
      Lack of support for this claim in that NY article is not proof for it's falseness. Author in his rebuttal also did not show that suicide rates of women correlate with their happiness nor that their average happiness of all woman in the country has anything to do with amount of child care provided free if charge. I think it's far worse because he claims that more people help you with your burdens the less happy you are which seems paradoxical and tries to found this claim with suicide rates which seem to have some apparent correlation with how much sunlight individuals get. I personally know young mother who gives her 3 year old daughter all her awake time and I find it hard to believe how she could not benefit from easing up getting child care for her. 24 hours in a day is for one person just barely enough to take care of the kid. You need other peoples help and I don't see how making it easier could lead to lower happiness let alone increasing suicide rates.

GrandMasterBirt 16y ago

Ok heres my response to the 8yo watching a movie and the mother wanting the child to go do homework. Parents NEED to understand the difference in age. Don't YOU hate it when you have to stop watching a movie you are interested in mid-way and do something you don't want to. Well a child has a harder time coping. Imagine your mother walks in on you fucking your girlfriend, and says in a pleasant voice (she ain't being a bitch) "honey, please get out of her and wash the dishes". Imagine the response you will have. Now imagine the request "honey, I know I'm heavily intruding but you haven't done the dishes in 3 days and I am hungry, so finish up in 15 minutes and wash the damn dishes!" I assure you the second scenario will make YOU feel responsible for the fact that this shit happened, maybe even embarrassed. But the message is VERY different. There was no painless way to get into the situation but it was as painless as possible given the circumstances and the blame now lies in the appropriate party. You need to alert the child that "homework is coming" give em a few minutes to cope, make sure they understand they have a few minutes and let that brain work at the coping, it just takes time. Be consistent with it. Also important to let the child know why it's their fault they have to stop, if the child did the homework first the child would have the ability to watch the movie without interruption. (make sure to not go back on your word, because that will not help later on). Now if the movie is on disk, let the child know you can pause and resume later, if not, hell 5 bucks to download the movie and let your kid watch it is worth it. With children every potential conflict can be turned into a learning experience one way or another. The problem is the going up to a child "turn of the tv and do homework". To a child that might be too sudden and too intense to immediately cope with. I am 26 years old and already me and my wife noticed these little things. Most the conflicts with my 3.5year old is avoided. AND she does what we want her to do. Sometimes we turn chores into a game, sometimes we turn something she dreads into something "fun" because we join her. Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS. Believe it or not, the child will want to do things differently than you do. Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is alright, so let them have their way. The child NEEDS to feel some control over their life, give them inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine it does not match, who cares. You will have to dedicate yourself to the kids, but thats what parenting is about.

jules 16y ago
> Also PICK YOUR CONFLICTS. Believe it or not, the child will want to do things differently than you do. Sometimes the way the kid wants to do it is alright, so let them have their way. The child NEEDS to feel some control over their life, give them inconsequential choices "red or blue shirt" fine it does not match, who cares. This is very important. I don't have kids but I have been one. When I see parents micro managing their kids I feel sorry for them. Let your kids explore and decide and learn. Make "yes" the default answer.

balding_n_tired 16y ago

Kind of fish in a barrel stuff, but the markmanship is fine at that range.

flybrand 16y ago

Is this just an example of how 'big media' is often held to lower standards than a blogger? Blog posts are often labeled as flame-baiting or simply trying to promote self interest (eg - articles that knock 37signals / Calacanis / Apple fan boys, etc.). The original article was pretty shallow; Jennifer Senior, the author, followed the conventional Gladwell-style of anecdote and insight mixed with research. TLP's dismantling of the original New Yorker article isn't as rough as it could have been. The original article got attention, was up-voted here and elsewhere, in many ways because of the provocative title, which wasn't well supported in the article. Thankfully, someone has pointed this out. Had this article been on LISP, geo-location, web2 business models, this community could have done it on its own, but here having someone who is a relative expert (assumed to be the case given TLP's title) was needed. [Side note - I am the father of two kids under age 4 and my wife has a master's degree in education and teaches. I disliked the original article.]